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Deborah’s Song (Rachel Wilhelm):
United Adoration podcast interview with Rachel Wilhelm
Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Daniel J. Mount:
Welcome to the Expository Songs podcast. We discuss songs where the main idea of a passage of Scripture is the main idea of the song. My name is Daniel Mount, and today we’re discussing “Deborah’s Song.” I have the honor to be joined today by its writer and recording artist, Rachel Wilhelm. Welcome!
Rachel Wilhelm:
Hey, thanks for having me.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thanks. So if you haven’t heard the song “Deborah’s Song,” pause this podcast, listen to it. It’s linked in the show notes and then come back for the conversation.
Rachel Wilhelm is a singer-songwriter and worship leader based in Knoxville, Tennessee. She also invests in other Christian writers through the ministry United Adoration.
And I’m looking forward to discussing “Deborah’s Song,” but let’s start with your background. You shared a deep and thoughtful conversation on your background in the United Adoration podcast episode recorded a couple of years ago, I think it was early COVID. And I’m gonna link to that in the show notes and encourage anyone who listens to check out your story in more detail. But before we jump into talking about the song specifically, what prompted you to start songwriting?
Rachel Wilhelm:
The Bible.
So grew up in a home where I experienced a tremendous amount of loneliness and music was something that was a friend to me. And I had a lot of siblings and I think I got lost in the shuffle a lot. And yeah, music was really helpful in that.
And I believe the Lord met me when I started to read Scripture, really out of the isolation and loneliness I felt. And I didn’t realize that I was a singer until my sister started singing and I tried it out for myself. And so, then I started writing songs and this is probably, maybe seven or eight years old I was starting to write songs, but I didn’t feel like I had words that I wanted to say except when reading Scripture I felt an intense desire to express what was there. So I think that’s where I got started.
Daniel J. Mount:
So you were writing songs from Scripture from day one then, pretty much.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
It wasn’t like you got started writing about kid topics and then switched into writing from Scripture later.
Rachel Wilhelm:
No, not at all. It was just something I was drawn to. Can’t explain it really.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Rachel Wilhelm:
I really can’t explain it.
Daniel J. Mount:
So your songs today have a very thoughtful engagement with Scripture. I don’t imagine you probably could have written some of what you’re writing today at age eight.
Rachel Wilhelm:
No.
Daniel J. Mount:
How did you grow into writing from Scripture like you do now? Were you setting Scripture word for word to music at first? And then how did you pivot and grow as a lyricist from Scripture?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Well, I definitely was not writing songs well at age eight. I was aiming to do word for word. You know, back in those days, you know, it was coming out of the Jesus People movement where there were a lot of songs from Scripture. And so I remember singing a lot of those songs in church. And so that was kind of an encouraged thing. And I saw the effectiveness of that. So I wanted to be a part of that. I mean, even from an early age, that just, you know, it did affect me in that way. So basically, yeah, I don’t think I did it well, to be honest.
And to explain my growth is something that I have a really hard time doing because it’s something that I just did sort of like learning how to cook or learning how to ride a bike, something that you gradually learn how to do well over the years. And I think that’s just how it went.
I think it’s only been of recent years that I have tried to actually rhyme or slant rhyme. And I mean recent years as in the last 15 to 20. I used to be very resistant to rhyming because I wanted to express the Scripture in a more true form. But then the more I engaged with songwriters and collaborated, the more I saw the effectiveness of rhyming and slant rhyming and kind of the beauty and the artistry of it.
Daniel J. Mount:
And there is definitely a time and a place for good Scripture songs. To this day, I still think that many of the best Scripture songs I have in the database I’ve been working on are those Scripture songs from the seventies and eighties—Scripture in Song, Maranatha—my first exposure to the Maranatha ones is through the Psalty collection, because it had a lot of the Maranatha Scripture songs in it. And then of course, in the nineties, Steve Green, Hide ‘Em In Your Heart, there’s some really good Scripture songs in there.
But there’s definitely a place for Scripture songs—and I love those and I collect those too—but I am particularly fascinated in this lyric that reflects on Scripture and how you get there and the process, which is what led to us talking about the song “Deborah’s Song.” And that’s from your most recently released album, I believe at this point, which is Mystery Canticles. Correct?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
Is it still your most recent? And so that came out in 2022, and there’s a note on your Bandcamp that says that the songs explore times when the Old Testament prophets didn’t know everything about what God was doing. Which is a very interesting angle to take, because what most of us think about when we think about prophets is we’re thinking about what they know, not necessarily what they don’t know. But there’s an interesting aspect to the liner notes there, because the liner notes say that the other three songs on this EP were all written in 2020, but that “Deborah’s Song” was written in October 2022, prior to the album’s release in November 2022.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
So had you been planning to just release the other songs or were you waiting until this one was finished? What was the process there, because this came on board at the last minute, it looks like, and that intrigued me?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, it totally did come on board at the last minute. Well in 2020, I was incredibly prolific, as a lot of artists were. I love “Jonah’s Song.” I love “Job’s Song.” I wrote that with Kate Bluett. Kate Bluett wrote the lyrics to it. She’s an incredible Catholic poet. And “Daniel’s Song” came out of that too. And I wanted to make sort of a characters of the Bible EP, but then I realized that the three characters, Job, Daniel, and Jonah, were all prophets. I definitely consider Job a prophet as he foretells the coming of Christ. “I know that my Redeemer lives.” And I wanted a woman on there, to be honest. I’m intrigued by Deborah. I’ve always been intrigued by Deborah, but I didn’t anticipate the song being “Deborah’s Song.”
For some reason, and I can’t remember if it was a conversation I was having with another songwriter friend, but for some reason, the story of Jael and the tent peg came into my mind. And I thought, she’s a warrior. She had a lot of courage. So I thought, if I could write a song for this that incorporates Jael in it, that would be really accomplishing something.
So I was talking to another songwriter friend. His name is Adam Whipple and he’s here in Knoxville. He’s a really great. poet, songwriter, writer, musician. And I was asking him if maybe he wrote lyrics to Jael’s story, if we could add it, and it would be more characters of the Bible. And he sent me lyrics and they were wonderful lyrics, but they were not, you know, in keeping with the rest of the songs that were gonna be on the EP. This was probably back in September of 2022. And man, when I got those lyrics, they inspired me to be honest. I sat down with the ukulele and I started singing this melody. [Sings opening notes to “Deborah’s Song.”] And I really loved it because it had this real urgent sound to it.
I sent him the melody and I said, “Hey, some of the lyrics don’t match this melody that I really feel precious about at the moment.” And he wrote back and he’s like, “Yeah, that’s fine. But you know, I was thinking this melody.” And I thought, “You know, I think I need to try to pursue this myself.” Nothing against him. He just wrote a beautiful set of lyrics. But maybe I need to kind of go with the prophet thing. And so that’s what I did.
I went through Scripture. I just did my usual thing, opened up Judges where Jael was, and realized that jail was and realized that Deborah’s song mentions Jael on the song. It’s really Deborah and Barak’s song. And I was floored. I was like, “Lord, You led me on this like off to the side trail to get to the point where you wanted me to get to with this song.” From then on, I wrote it straight from that. I just used that melody. I formed the lyrics to fit inside that melody using the Scripture from then on.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. So just for context for those listening along, and I’d encourage you either pause before or after this, read Judges 4 and 5 because that’s the story we’re talking about. Judges 4, just to summarize in a sentence or two, it tells us the story of God working through Deborah and Jael to deliver Israel from Sisera who was the commander of the Canaanite army. And then Judges 5 is Deborah’s response in song.
So with Judges 5 as your source text, do you recall, did you start off writing a verse, start off with a chorus? I mean, well, you started with a melody, but with the melody as your starting point, did you see it start to come together in the chorus, start to come together in that first verse or somewhere else?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Basically, in that first verse, let me pull it up here so I can see it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Probably based on verses three and four largely.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yes, verse three. When I saw the “Here, O kings, give ear, I’m gonna make melody to the Lord.” And I wanted to point out or emphasize the fact that Deborah was the one that was standing up and singing.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Rachel Wilhelm:
And so that’s kind of where I got that from in the beginning of that song.
Daniel J. Mount:
Line two doesn’t so much come from verses three and four—line two of the verse doesn’t come from our source text as much as it’s establishing that Deborah is the one singing.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay and then you have verse four, “Lord when you went from Seir, when you marched from the field of Edom the earth trembled and the heavens poured, the clouds also poured water.” You really summarize that in the second half of that first verse.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, I did. And the judgment of God always comes through in Scripture in nature, like from the mountain, you know, in the clouds, from the rain, from the thunder, so I really wanted to emphasize the fact that the judgment of God was coming down.
Daniel J. Mount:
Something I really like about this verse and this song is Deborah’s story is so unique among the other judges that it would be tempting—and I think if there was a children’s song it would follow this and it wouldn’t necessarily be bad in a children’s song—but in a song that’s a little more reflective it would be tempting to say look what Deborah, did this is amazing. She was amazing. But I really like how both the original Deborah’s song in Judges 5 and your rendition of Deborah’s song frame it in the context of look what God has done.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
Because that’s where Deborah wanted the spotlight and that’s where I think you kept the spotlight there really well.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really love the—I don’t know where I got the “God marched out to wield his mighty sword.:
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s a good line!
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, I like that line. I thought, you know, I’m going to keep that.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Because I did want to emphasize that God is the one that’s doing the work here.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Rachel Wilhelm:
We see that a lot in Scripture where God commands that, like the army’s lessened, so that less becomes more because God can shine in his glory even more so that way.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, I do have one specific question about this first verse.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
I assume that when you say the sky bled its store, you’re talking about raining?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay. Because Scripture often uses rain as a metaphor for God’s blessing, and that makes sense in an agricultural society. But it almost seems like you’re using the rain as a metaphor for judgment here.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yes, yep.
Daniel J. Mount:
And that is intentionally where you were going with this? Cool.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, the bleeding for sure.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. You don’t say the sky bled its store if it’s God’s blessing the fields with rain to make the harvest grow.
Rachel Wilhelm:
No. Right, exactly.
Daniel J. Mount:
Just interesting to think about it because it’s relevant here and it’s relevant from the source text. It’s just not how we often see rain.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Right, yeah, and I think if you think about a war with rain, that’s miserable.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Rachel Wilhelm:
You know, rain can be a blessing and rain can be a curse, really, in certain situations for war. For the losing side of the battle, rain can be terrible.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, definitely.
So moving on to the chorus, that’s drawing from Judges 5:31, the end of the chapter, which says, “Thus let all your enemies perish, O Lord, but let those who love him be like the sun when it comes out in full strength.” So what drew you down to the end of the chapter and to that verse for the chorus? Is this the unifying verse, the unifying idea, you would say of Deborah’s original song and that’s why you pulled from it here?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I do, and you might like this, is every week at my church I write a new refrain for a psalm, for the psalm of the day. So it’s part of the liturgy. And I teach that refrain on the spot to my congregation. And we have a reader that reads, it’s a back and forth reading congregation response with a refrain that kind of keeps us at center. I try to find the nugget inside that psalm so that we’re singing a response that kind of sums up everything that’s in that psalm.
And so I used that same trick when I was looking at Judges 5. II thought if I’m going to use, if I’m going to talk about this battle and I’m going to talk about, you know, Deborah’s role in it and Jael’s role in it and all of that, I’ve got to find that nugget. And when I’m thinking about Deborah and when I’m thinking about Jael, these are two women that were successful through the Lord’s help to win this battle, to kill the king. God used women to do that. And over and over in Judges, there’s the failure of men to stand up and fight and to do God’s will. And in this case, where Jesus says, “If they don’t worship me, the rocks are gonna cry out.” It’s the same kind of idea where if the men aren’t gonna stand up and fight, then I’m gonna use these women that are willing to do it.
And so I really love this ending line in Judges 5, where it says, “So may all Your enemies perish, our Lord, but Your friends be like the sun as he rises in his might.” And I thought, Deborah and Jael are like the sun. They’re rising up to fight for the Lord. And I’m also thinking about how Deborah in the beginning is standing up to declare what God has done as well. So she’s even being triumphant in her standing and declaring this to the Lord and to all of God’s people.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, so I want to return to verse two in a minute. But you said something that was just interesting got me thinking down a little rabbit trail. So i’m going to put a pin in the “Deborah’s Song” discussion and come back to that in a minute.
But you mentioned something very interesting, which was composing a refrain for a psalm each week in your church and that your church is in a liturgical context. And you’ve shared enough about it on Facebook that I don’t think you’d mind if I mentioned, I believe, you’re in an Anglican church, correct?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yep, yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I haven’t ever been in a very liturgical context. I’ve definitely had churches that have a call to worship and a confession of sin and a confession of faith, but unscripted in a sense.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I have spent my entire life—and I’m thankful to be in church from childhood—so my entire life in churches that maybe have a liturgy, it’s just not a historic one. We sing our three songs and then we have offering and then we have offertory and and maybe another song and then the sermon and then a closing song and we go home. So we have a liturgy in a sense.
But there is, I think, a perception among people who are in a non-liturgical church, that a non-liturgical church has more room for creativity. You might be more likely to see a new song in a non-liturgical church. And there is this perception that if you’re in a liturgical church, you’ll only be singing and speaking things that are either 500 years old or straight from Scripture and 2000, 3000, 4000 years old.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
I’m just intrigued by you mentioning you’re writing a new song each week. Would you be up for saying something for a minute here on how musical creativity flourishes in your context and how there’s room in your church’s liturgy for creativity? Because that’s really interesting.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, I think in a liturgical context, as a creative person, as a songwriter, there’s room because limits offer more creative thinking.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Rachel Wilhelm:
So when you have a limit, you can think, okay, what can I do here that will also bring beauty? Not that the liturgy doesn’t bring beauty, it does, but—How can I enhance this? How can I make it even more beautiful to the best of my ability? You know with the gifts that the Lord has given me. And so I look at the liturgy which I love—that’s why I’m in a liturgical church—I look at the liturgy and I look at all of the know service Songs that we potentially could be singing. We have a Kyrie every week. We have a Gospel Gradual. I’m not sure if you know what that is.
Daniel J. Mount:
I don’t.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Okay, so just backing up really quick. In our liturgy, we have an Old Testament reading, a New Testament reading, a psalm, and a gospel reading. So we read a lot of Scripture and it takes up a big chunk of the service to read all the Scripture. So we have readers come up and read those parts of Scripture and they all have kind of a working theme, the theme of the Sunday within the liturgical calendar. And so everything sort of ties together. It’s really a beautiful thing.
And so it’s my job to look at all those Scriptures every week and kind of find those threads that tie everything together. And I talked to my pastor about the sermon and I choose songs that, you know, kind of hug everything, right? And so I do the same thing with the psalm.
And we have service music throughout our liturgy. So we have a Kyrie, which is “Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy on us.” So I have several different Kyries that we use throughout the year that I’ve written for liturgical purposes. So like if it’s Lent, it’s gonna sound really sad. And if it’s Easter, it’s gonna sound actually peppier and happier.
But we also have like a Gospel Gradual. When the gospel is read, the gospel is read by a deacon, and the cross is processed out into the congregation, and the Bible is opened up by the deacon and the deacon reads the gospel. And the congregation’s involved. So it’s very interesting. They say, “Praise to you Lord Christ” before the gospel’s read, and then after it’s “Glory to you, Lord Christ.” And then the gospel is brought back up to the altar.
The interesting thing about that is I’m commissioned to think of a song that is sung as the gospel goes out and as it goes back.
Daniel J. Mount:
Hmm. Same song there or two different ones?
Rachel Wilhelm:
I usually use the same song. I cut it in half; maybe we sing the verse and then the chorus going back. And then there’s a Sanctus we sing. I have several. So it’s a great way to be creative. Think about the emotions of every part of the liturgical year and apply that to those same texts that we say all the time that could be really tired if we just said them. But because we sing them, there’s so much room for creativity in that and for beauty.
Daniel J. Mount:
And I do like what you say, there’s a lot of truth to creativity flourishing within constraints.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
If you say, write a song about anything, use any of the 88 keys on the piano, use any word in any order, any topic, where does somebody start? If you say, write a song from Jeremiah, keep the range to an octave and two notes, so an untranslator can sing it. there’s something to work with and if you say write a song from Jeremiah 31 then you’ve got a starting point.
Rachel Wilhelm:
That’s right.
Daniel J. Mount:
There’s a decent chance to come up with something. So I do like this idea of creativity flourishing within constraints
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
So back to “Deborah’s Song.”
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
Moving onto verse two. It draws from Judges 5.20-22 which describes the ride of Sisera’s army. The Scripture text there says, “They fought from the heavens, the stars from their courses fought against Sisera. The torrent of Kishon swept them away, the ancient torrent, the torrent of Kishon. O my soul, march on in strength. Then the horse’s hooves pounded the galloping, galloping of his steeds.”
And you summarize that in the words:
They fought from the heavens, the stars from their course,
The torrent of the land swept them away
Is there none to carry the will of the Lord?
The people flee before the pounding horse
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
So that makes sense to me as a second verse because verse one sets the scene for the battle verse two is describing the outcome of the battle.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
Now that first line of verse two how do you understand it? Because it says, “They fought from the heavens the stars from their course. Is that poetic license as you’d see it? Is Deborah using poetic license? Or do you see it as possibly a reference to God working supernaturally through the heavens through the stars to accomplish this rout of the enemy?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, I mean, if you read C.S. Lewis, there’s like, and his cosmology stuff, there is—
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm. Maybe a little, I haven’t read much of that.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, there’s a lot there, you know, I’ve read a lot about that. And I won’t be too geeky about it.
Daniel J. Mount:
A little geekiness is cool though!
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, so, so he speaks on how he loves the idea that there is work within the spiritual realm that’s happening. And there is like this, if you’re thinking about “from heaven, the stars fought,” did the stars really fight? They might’ve. I mean, are the stars angels? Are they some of the host of heaven that is fighting? We don’t really quite know, but theologically, I think there’s some weight to that. And I think maybe there’s something that Deborah as a prophet, I don’t believe she knows everything what she’s saying. You know what I’m saying? Like, I think that’s kind of what I was getting at with the idea that prophets don’t necessarily know what God is doing. They don’t even understand what God is doing. They’re just they’re the conduits that are speaking for the Lord. They’re his, they’re his mouthpiece. And so I love that it seems like she’s taking poetic license, but really I think it’s the Lord that’s speaking and saying, this is truly what’s happening in the spirit realm. You know, I’m fighting and the host of Heaven is fighting alongside me. And we’re using the poetry of the stars to get that across. I love that. I think it’s beautiful sounding.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is.
Rachel Wilhelm:
It makes war sound really beautiful and glorious. So I thought, oh, I’ll add that. Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Cool! I’m intrigued by the rhyme scheme in the verses because it’s not something we see often. In traditional hymn writing if you’re looking back to Isaac Watts, John Newton, Charles Wesley and the other greats of that era, even as far down as Fanny Crosby and the great writers of the 1800s, you’ll tend to see one or two rhyme schemes almost universally, and that’s ABAB or ABCB, which is to say, lines one and three and two and four rhyme, or just lines two and four rhyme.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
And now you see about anything and everything, but you still see those two often. But I’m intrigued by this ABAA rhyme scheme you have here. Where, again for those who aren’t up on the shorthand, that’s where lines 1, 3, and 4 all rhyme. Did you come upon this by accident in one verse and then just make it consistent for the others, or was this part of your plan from the start? If you recall.
Rachel Wilhelm:
It definitely wasn’t my plan from the start. How I typically write is I have a melody first. And if it sounds right with the melody, that’s what I kind of roll with. And that’s what happened with the first verse when I wrote it. And I thought, well, I’ll just make it all the same. So if I get some half rhymes in there that make it work, I’ll try to squeeze that in. But it wasn’t intentional. I didn’t go in thinking, I’m gonna make it ABAA. But I think it sounds right.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, it does.
Rachel Wilhelm:
So I just went with it.
Daniel J. Mount:
And that is a good songwriting tip for songwriters who are listening. There’s a time and a place to break every rule. Rules are just what you see more often than not. But what you generally see more often than not in songs that are well-written is that when something is done once, especially in an area of something like a rhyme scheme, that’s maintained consistently throughout the song. So once you have that rhyme scheme established, it’s fairly common in professionally written songs to maintain that rhyme scheme to the end of the song.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yep, absolutely. Consistency is super important. And yeah, in this song, “Deborah’s Song” is not congregational and I would write totally different—I just feel like with Scripture, there’s so much more freedom in the way of melody and rhyme scheme and all the things that, don’t make you feel like, am I being heretical by creating this melody? I think it’s important to really think about melodically, how does this feel? How do we want this actual song, the set of Scripture to feel? And that’s kind of how I approach it. I go there first and then everything else falls into place.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, that’s good. I see that starting point makes sense.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
So verse three is where Deborah sings of jail, which we see in Judges 5:24-27. The story itself is recounted in the preceding chapter. This is how Deborah sings of it. “Most blessed among women is Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite. Blessed is she among women in tents. He asked for water, she gave milk. She brought out cream in a lordly bowl. She stretched out her hand to the tent peg, her right hand to the workman’s hammer. She pounded Cicero, she pierced his head, she split and struck through his temple. At her feet he sank, he fell, he lay still. At her feet he sank, he fell. Where he sank, there he fell dead.”
And you summarize these four verses of Scripture in one verse of the song, which is:
Most blessed is a woman, a wife with a peg
When asked for water gave warm milk
And as he lay sleeping she hammered his head
He lay still, he sank, there he fell dead
Now you could have probably stopped at verse 2 and had a song that made sense if you were strictly focusing on the parts of the story that Deborah had a first-hand role in. And as I was listening to this before we started talking, I was wondering why bring in Jael? Is it just because she comes next in the Scripture? And I think that may be a part of it, but I’m guessing part of it might be that the write of the song started with the idea of a song about Jael. Is that part of why you wanted to make sure she was still here in the last verse?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Well, she had to be in it because that was the whole point for me.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay.
Rachel Wilhelm:
I really wanted her to be emphasized, but I wanted two women to be emphasized as well. I thought, oh, wow. Okay. Wait a minute. This whole thing is blossoming into something that I really would like to express. But the other thing too is—Jael’s story is part of the song. It’s part of Deborah’s song. And I wanted to be faithful to the Scripture as much as I could. And I think that’s kind of where I go anyway, naturally. If I weren’t looking for applying Jael to the song, I would have done it anyway. I really wanted Deborah’s whole song to be in there, at least the chunks that are important. So I thought, the whole point of it was to get to Jael.
And I also wanted it to be—once you get to that point in Deborah’s song, it becomes kind of funny. We even were laughing about it. It’s the glory of God mocking false leaders that are out there. God is triumphant over any kind of idol, over any kind of King. He is mighty and he’s a mighty warrior. And he laughs at his foes. He just does. That’s, you know, you read anywhere in Scripture and God is funny. And you know, He is the author of humor. He’s the author of irony. He’s the author of coincidental things that happen. And I just love that about him. And I think this was on purpose for sure. I think the Lord really wanted to emphasize the fact that look, ha ha, this King was tricked and he was tired and he lay down and a woman that follows after me killed him with a tent peg. Isn’t that hilarious?
And, and it is hilarious. we need to look at it and not think, you know, oh, God’s terrible for doing that. No, God is correct.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Rachel Wilhelm:
And Hhe does things in the way that he does them. And I love the poetry of, you know, “between her feet, he sank, he fell, he lay still between her feet, he sank, he fell where he sank there. He fell dead.” I mean, it’s like Dr. Seuss0worthy.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, that’s, and I have to say that verse in particular has puzzled me since I was a child, fairly young, and I was very aware of Deborah’s story because I have a sister named Deborah.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
So when you have a sister named Deborah, that’s a passage of the Bible, you’re really paying attention when you go through it. And so being aware, being paying attention, I’ve wondered what Deborah was feeling in that moment. Was she feeling—Was she expressing relief or vindication? And I think you’re bringing out the component—she may have even been feeling a sense of humor, bringing out how ironic or unexpected it was.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yep, I definitely feel that and I see it.
I think the effect that it has on us when we read it, we’re kind of like, ha ha, that’s kind of funny. I think she was feeling that too.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Because God’s humorous, He has a sense of humor.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. So the last chorus actually has a different wording than the other choruses. It comes from the same source text, Judges 5:31, “Thus let all your enemies perish, O Lord, but let those who love Him be like the sun when it comes out in full strength.”
And then your wording summarizing it is:
Let your enemies perish,
They will fall and never rise again.
Those who rest by your river
Will recount your righteousness.
So what was your thought process behind writing a second chorus? Did it just feel weird to say “those who love you will rise up” after describing Cicero’s death? Like the first chorus just didn’t feel like it fit there? And was there anything else you wanted to bring out in having a different chorus for the start versus later?
Rachel Wilhelm:
I think the first chorus would have fit, but the second chorus, I wanted to emphasize the great irony of, like, “those who love you will rise up,” right? Deborah’s rising to tell the story and to sing the song. And the irony is the king lays down and gets a tent peg run through his head.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Wilhelm:
So I wanted to emphasize, “Let your enemies perish. They will fall and never rise again.” So there’s the shift in the story: God’s people are gonna rise like the sun, but the Lord’s enemies are gonna perish and they’re not gonna rise again, they’re gonna fall.
Something I really wanted to emphasize is the fact that also, these are two key women in Scripture that help the battle tremendously with the Lord’s help by standing up and rising and doing what they needed to do to win.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. So I think I have one more question on Deborah’s song and then we can move to a couple of general questions to conclude and wrap up. And the one more question on Deborah’s song was just a general songwriting question. What parts of this song came easily? Were there any lyrics or melodic components that were a challenge to get right? How long did it take to finish it? And if you have any other general thoughts you’d like to share on this song before I move on to a couple general questions.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Actually, once I have the melody, it comes fairly easily. And I really do believe that the Lord was working through the writing of this song. I believe that he works through everybody in their creativity. It’s a Holy Spirit work. It’s very holy and sacred.
But I think the Lord really wanted this song on the album. Not because I’m some megastar or super famous or any of those things. But because the Lord is working and He’s working whether we believe it or not. And that through something that I think he put on my heart to release, He wanted me to put this song in there. And I think that’s why it was so last minute.
And the writing of it felt very last minute. Once I had that melody, it just happened so quickly. And I just went through that and I can’t remember how long it took me. It probably took me just a couple hours of using my thesaurus app and RhymeZone.
It probably took me about a couple hours. I don’t think I had another day where I was writing it, I think I went to it the next day thinking, okay, surely I have to work on this again, like there’s got to be some refining, And there really wasn’t anything to refine, it was just one of those things that came so easily.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s nice when that happens!
Rachel Wilhelm:
It is so nice when that happens!
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
So when I see you pop up on collaborations with other writers, like Caroline Cobb needs a lament Psalm for her Psalms album so she calls you up. Or you’re collaborating with Wendell Kimbrough or other collaborations, It’s often in the area of lament, not that that’s all you write, but it seems fairly common. Do you have, would you say you have a perception among the songwriting community perhaps even as somewhat of a lament specialist? [Laughter]
Is that, is that a big part of what you do? It seems to be a big part of what you do, not just, oh that’s one of the things I can do, but it seems to be not, I don’t want to say core to your identity as a songwriter, but very important to what you do. Is that fair to say?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, it’s fair. I’m not insulted at all by being identified as, you know, the lamentor or the songwriter who predominantly writes laments. I do, I mean, that’s something that I do. And I love Old Testament Scripture so much. I can’t describe to you how much Old Testament Scripture has made an impact on my life. And from a very young age, I’ve lamented because I saw that modeled in Scripture and mainly through David, King David and Jeremiah and other prophets, but also through God. God laments so much in Scripture. He laments probably the most. So I think it’s a posture that we all should have, but for some reason, it’s a very, very hard place to go for a lot of people.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Rachel Wilhelm:
And it’s not hard for me to go there. And I feel God has given me that gift to help others go there more easily. And I’m more than happy to help. So if Caroline Cobb comes to me and says, ”You know, I want to write a lament on Psalm 102. I’ve got most of the song here, but what else does this need?” You know, I’m more than happy to help with that or give whatever I can to bring lament more to the surface because I believe that the church needs it and suffers without it. But yeah, in my circles, it’s so funny. I am often called the queen of lament. [Laughter] So yes, it is part of my songwriting identity.
I did put out a full-length album in 2017 called Songs of Lament. And I put out Requiem in 2021, which is basically a concept album of a funeral service. So it’s a folk-style requiem. And so I would say that lament definitely is part of my core.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you. As you say, it is a challenging place for a lot of songwriters to get into. And it’s helpful to have somebody who’s thought about it deeply and knows how to do it well as a resource, both a resource for the listener to have good songs, but a resource for other artists to help other artists express what they may be feeling, but can’t quite nail because they haven’t spent as much time understanding the space as you have.
So I’d like to just conclude with anything you’d like to share about your work with United Adoration. I believe you’ve done some things with Cardiphonia if you want to mention that. And anything you’d like to share about an album you’re working on right now.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Ah! Well, there’s a lot there. I could say so much.
Daniel J. Mount:
Sure. And I will say, I will say from my standpoint, just based on your time, go into as much detail as you like.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Okay, yeah, for my work with United Adoration, I’m the vice president. So I travel to conferences and sometimes speak. I engage with songwriters quite a bit. United Adoration is a ministry that seeks to revitalize the creativity in the local church. So we do that predominantly through offering retreats for artists at local churches. And that means not just in the US, but around the world. And so I lead songwriting retreats mostly, but I can also lead multi-art retreats, any other kind of art retreat I’m good at facilitating. I think that we have a lot of great people on our team that can do that, too. It’s a wonderful ministry that I really believe in and love.
And I just have a real heart for artists, artists in general, but also songwriters. And I have a real heart for female songwriters. I know what it’s like to try to do it all. And I think sometimes female songwriters feel like when they have children and they have full-time jobs or, you know, any mixture of those things, that they don’t have time for their art and their craft. And I see them. I really want them to know that I see them, their work matters, their artistry matters.
It’s worth recording. It’s worth getting your things out there because if they don’t do it, then no one will. God’s given them a particular gift. And I just love seeing artists. I want to listen to their songs. I want to be present with them and hear. I want to hear their laments. I want to talk through things with them and help them understand how the Lord sees them and how the Lord loves when they create for Him and for His glory. So that is what I do for UA.
For a Liturgy Fellowship, I’m just an admin. At conferences and stuff, I gather people in the group and we have a lot of fun. I take selfies with everyone, which is always kind of embarrassing, but also everyone loves it. I don’t know why! [Laughter[ So, yes, so Liturgy Fellowship’s great.
I’ve produced some of the Cartofonia records and I love that. I love doing that work. I love herding cats and project management and all of that stuff. So that’s a gift and such a blessing for me to have that opportunity to do those things. And
Daniel J. Mount:
And I would have to say it’s a blessing for the other artists involved also, I’m sure.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Because many people who are especially gifted in the area of one type of artistry or another aren’t necessarily gifted in project management and deadlines and organization.
Rachel Wilhelm:
No. [Laughter]
Daniel J. Mount:
So it’s always a blessing when there’s somebody who is, who can pull everything together.
Rachel Wilhelm:
It is so funny because I’m not, I don’t think of myself as being an organized person. I’m just good at gathering people.
I know people are probably all done with the enneagram and all that, but it’s really good at like kind of cornering or highlighting different personality types. I don’t go too far with it, but I am one of those four with a three wing where I’m super emotional and very empathic and artistic, but at the same time I get stuff done. So I love having a project and deadlines and things to do. And I love making something beautiful and seeing the finished product. And if I can get people to do that with me because I love collaboration, the more the merrier, it’s even better.
So the other thing, Jeremiah, yeah, I’m working on this Jeremiah record. I’ve been working on it since August of last year. And yeah, it’s been probably the hardest album that I’ve worked on because getting collaborators and people together to make it happen is sometimes really hard. It’s worth it, it’s lovely, but sometimes it’s difficult to have other people help you reach your deadline.
It’s a project that started all the way in Minneapolis when I lived there and I led a Jeremiah songwriting retreat for a church. Now this is before I worked for UA. So God had other plans, right? I was really impacted by the songs that were written. I had a hand in many, if not all. And basically, the reason why this church wanted a Jeremiah retreat was because this church had a Jeremiah series so that the pastor was preaching on. And so he wanted a song for every—like it was a commission thing. He wanted a song for every offertory that, that season. And so, yeah, a handful of songwriters from the area got together and we wrote some songs. And one of my really good friends, Devin Pogue, he and I wrote a lot of songs together. And for this project we wrote several. I can’t remember how many. So he’s featured on the album quite a bit and singing background vocals or lead or what have you.
And my friend Phil Keaggy is playing guitar on five of the tracks. There are eleven tracks. I’m just honored and blessed that he would want to be involved in my project, but he’s just been such a good friend over the last year and a half or so. And yeah, you just it’s wonderful to have someone believe in your work and actually want to work on the songs that you create. So we also wrote a song together on the on the album. It’s called “Daughter, daughter” and it’s based on Jeremiah 50. And yeah, it’s one of my favorites.
What is really hard about Jeremiah is that most of the songs are from God’s perspective. And there’s a lot of weight to that. There’s an intimidation.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, it’s even more important to get it right.
Rachel Wilhelm:
Yeah, you come to it with fear and trembling and you don’t want to get wrong. That’s right. So I was kind of looking through the track list and I realized that eight of the songs are from God’s perspective and only three are from Jeremiah’s actual perspective.
So it tells the story. of the book of Jeremiah. It starts with “You Won’t Turn.” The Lord’s lamenting the fact that his people won’t turn. He says, “you have turned your back, but not your face. What does that mean?” But I just, I leave it there, that it’s an actual thing that God is saying that is an offense to Him.
And then by the end, it’s the Lord pleading with His people, His daughter to come climb the mountain where I am and come home. Don’t listen to those shepherds that are corrupt and trying to lead you astray and tell you, go down the mountain. He’s not here. Actually, He says, ignore them and walk up the mountain. Look up. And come to Me and you will find rest. So I love the journey that the album takes and really proud of how it’s gotten to the place where it is.
It has a little bit of a different sound from my previous work. There’s basically no worship songs on it at all, I don’t think. Uh, and it sounds kind of country, which is different. But it’s more of my musical worship style, which is kind of a light Appalachian, country, alternative country folk sound. And so that’s where the sound of Jeremiah is coming from.
And I think that’s really good because I think the book of Jeremiah, in a sense, feels very earthy to me. I don’t know why, but when I read the book and I think about it, it feels like a desert. And so I wanted to capture the earthy feel of the book of Jeremiah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. I’m looking forward to hearing it. And if it works out for your schedule, perhaps I can have you back on when it comes out and we can talk about one of the songs from that album.
Rachel Wilhelm:
I would love that.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you. So what’s your website? How can people keep up with you on social media?
Rachel Wilhelm:
Oh gosh, I’m terrible about all of that. You can keep up with me on my Facebook page or my website, which is rachelwillhelm.com, I believe.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is.
Rachel Wilhelm:
I don’t really update it all that much. I need to. I’m terrible. I’m so sorry. But I just like to create and put things out there. But you can also follow me on my Bandcamp page, which I’m a little more prone to to visit. I’m rachelwilhelm1. Right?
Daniel J. Mount:
I will find the link and put it in the show notes. [Laughter[
Rachel Wilhelm:
I’m so sorry.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s fine.
Rachel Wilhelm:
But yeah, you can find me. Just Google Rachel Wilhelm. I’m all over the place.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. And you, the listeners can find and subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find a future episodes, episode transcriptions and the free 48,000 song expository songs database at danielmount.com. Thank you for listening!