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More songs from I John:
https://danielmount.com/expository-songs/i-john/
Searchable database: https://danielmount.com/expository-songs/
Songs featured:
I John 4:4: Lift High the Name of Jesus (Keith & Kristyn Getty): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ZULrY9HlI
I John 4:19: Oh, How I Love Jesus (Frederick Whitfield): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LigthUdPnGQ
I John 4:19: And This Is Love (GLAD/John Keltonic, Ed Nalle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdyAOEP4uXA
I John 4:4: Greater (MercyMe): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9XFO1oSk68
I John 4:19: Your Love is Reaching Me (Paul Baloche): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjOd0vo4cfA
I John 4:4: Greater is He That is in You (C. Austin Miles, J. Lincoln Hall): https://hymnary.org/text/look_up_when_all_the_way_is_dark
I John 4:8: God is Love (Steve Green): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7l6Un0m9Dw
I John 4:20: Whom, Having Not Seen, I Love (Maud Frazer, Chas. H. Gabriel): https://hymnary.org/text/a_friend_have_i_who_standeth_near_to_com
I John 4:19: Because He Loved Me First (Ross King, Lee Black) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbR7G0fsZXk
Pat Barker:
Guardians Quartet website: https://guardiansquartet.com/
Guardians Quartet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheGuardiansOnline
Guardians Quartet YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9lYL9cX14nijnmg7Rkzp-Q
Guardians Quartet Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theguardiansmusic
First Baptist Williams: https://www.facebook.com/fbcwilliams/
Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Daniel J. Mount:
Welcome to the Expository Songs podcast. We discuss songs where the main idea of a passage of scripture is the main idea of a song. Today, we’re looking at songs from 1 John 4, and I have the honor to be joined today by Pat Barker. Welcome.
Pat Barker:
Hey Daniel, how are you, buddy?
Daniel J. Mount:
Doing well, how about you?
Pat Barker:
I’m doing great. It’s great to see you. We don’t see each other enough, my friend.
Daniel J. Mount:
Likewise, it’s been a few years. Good to see you again.
Daniel J. Mount:
So some listening to this podcast will know, some won’t. You’ve sung bass with a number of quartets. Diplomats, Dixie Echos, Mark Trammell Quartet, Second Half Quartet, and most recently The Guardians. Did I miss one?
Pat Barker:
There you go. You know, you can count the Cathedral Family Reunion if you want to.
Daniel J. Mount:
Let’s count the Cathedral Family Reunion. Why not?
Pat Barker:
There’s about 30 of us up on stage.
Daniel J. Mount:
Let’s count it.
Pat Barker:
Sure, sounds good.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. So besides singing bass though, if I recall correctly, and this has been a conversation from 10 years ago, but I believe you’ve also spent a number of years as a music minister in between the Diplomats and the Dixie Echos. Am I remembering that correctly?
Pat Barker:
Oh absolutely, yeah my first job as a choir director, I was 19 years old so that goes even before the Diplomats. I was at a little church called Walnut Park. My dad was a choir director for as long as I was alive. That’s really all I knew. And so when I was 19 that was my first paid job. It didn’t pay much
Daniel J. Mount:
Neat.
Pat Barker:
but I didn’t care. I was loving it so I was a choir director for a couple years at Walnut Park and then I was a choir director at a church back home called Gladeview Baptist Church. I was there for a couple of years while I was in college. All of this was while I was in college.
Then I left choir directing for a while and just did some normal jobs, worked at Applebee’s, things like that. But singing a church group back home called the Crystal River Boys. We’d sing around the house, but always had an itch to get back into. choir directing and so I did. I got back into it and that was in between the Diplomats and the Dixie Echos. I was the choir director there at my home church of Lakeview in Oxford and then now my wife and I lead music at a church where my dad was for 30 years, First Baptist Williams. When I’m not there, of course, my wife does all the leading and then when I am there they wish I wasn’t because they like my wife there.
Daniel J. Mount:
Which state is that in by the way? I should know.
Pat Barker:
It’s in Alabama. I live in Georgia.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, we live in Georgia now. She teaches choir at a school in Georgia. And so we drive an hour and 15 minutes to get to church and lead music there, but it’s home. I mean, everybody’s so loving and kind there. And I’ve been there since I was twelve. So it’s home for us.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s good, I’ve driven an hour to go to the church before. When it’s the right church, it’s worth it.
Pat Barker:
You are correct, my friend.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you. And I think that context is good for those listening to this podcast because everybody else I’ve had on in this series, the first two episodes live and then the next one is not live yet, has either been. a senior pastor who also has led worship or a worship leader.
Pat Barker:
Sure.
Daniel J. Mount:
And not that I would only do that, but I think it does help continuity, everybody to understand you’re looking at songs from the perspective, not just of somebody who’s performed on stage for a number of years, but you’ve also experienced the local church context. You know this world, too.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
And that helps, I think, when looking at these songs.
Pat Barker:
I agree.
Daniel J. Mount:
So we’ve each picked, we think, are five of the best songs from I John 4. And before we get into going through songs, I’m just curious, as you were looking through songs, What made a song jump out to you? And I can give as an example, were you thinking, like I tend to think almost first, would this work in my church, in my congregation, either as a congregational song or as special music? But then sometimes I’m really moved by a song that wouldn’t and it’s just for personal edification. So that’s kind of my thought process. What was your thought process as you were looking through these songs?
Pat Barker:
Okay, so the first thing I think of is, is it scriptural?
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Pat Barker:
You took out all the guesswork. [LAUGHTER] When I looked at that list of songs, I thought I’m not gonna have to really dig too hard on this one. But that’s really the first thing I look at when I’m picking out songs. Because it can be a great song that I grew up on and that I love, but when I look at it, I go, that’s just not scriptural. It’s really good and it’s fun, or I can clap my hands to it, but it’s not gonna edify anyone. It’s not gonna help the pastor as he’s coming up to open up the Word of God. It’s just a fun song or a nice melody or it’s pretty harmonies. So that’s something I really try to dig into: Is it scriptural? And then secondly, is it gonna work for First Baptist Williams or is it gonna work for whatever church I’m going into to lead a revival or homecoming. That is always second and then third, even if it works, it’s singable. Is it something that’s going to be congregational or is this something that’s going to be a special? Is this something i’m going to need to put a choir together, or a praise team, a trio? So that’s kind of the order that I go in. Yeah, and then I looked at where in the service would it go?
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, well, you know, I completely agree about the Scriptural part, and I can’t believe I forgot to say that. You know, no,
Pat Barker:
I knew you meant it!
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, I definitely meant it. It’s interesting that you can almost think of songs in three categories, because a song that might not make the tier to be the one we discuss here. There are songs that are unscriptural, as in there’s something that’s actively wrong in the song.
Pat Barker:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
But there’s also songs that are not terribly scriptural in the other sense of, it might make you feel good, it might express a happy emotion, “Precious Memories,” “Little Country Church in the Wood,” it might bring out a good emotion. And I’m not saying those songs are wrong, I can’t think of anything that’s explicitly unbiblical in them, but there’s not much that’s really explicitly Biblical either.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, it doesn’t go against Scripture, but there’s no Scripture to back it up.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, absolutely. I agree.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, and it’s good. When we say a song is unbiblical in this sense, it’s not that we’re necessarily saying there’s something in this song that’s heretical.
Pat Barker:
Right. Correct. Unless you’re singing “A New Name Written Down in Glory.”
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s true. The book written down in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That’s true.
Pat Barker:
That’s always my favorite. Somebody will ask for “A New Name.” I’ll say, well, if you can find it in the scripture, I’ll sing it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
Now, other hand, if you have “That’s When the Angels Rejoice,” there’s a little more biblical ground for that one.
Pat Barker:
A little more, yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. So we each have picked five songs we really like from this chapter. Would you like to go first and then I’d be the one with the last song pick or would you like to go second? I don’t care.
Pat Barker:
Sure! Hey, you’re the host, Daniel.
Daniel J. Mount:
Oh, you can pick.
Pat Barker:
Ask and you shall receive.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay. Well, you want to kick us off?
Pat Barker:
Sounds good to me. So the first one: I went to where number five would be the first song of the service.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay.
Pat Barker:
Number one is going to be the song right before the message. And it ends up being my favorite.
Daniel J. Mount:
It works.
Pat Barker:
So it kind of goes in order anyway. So number five is gonna be the very first song I put in the service, which is, “Lift High the Name of Jesus,” The Gettys. I heard your pastor who said how much he loves The Gettys and has never got to see them live. I got to see them a couple of years ago when I went to the G3 conference here in Atlanta, and The Gettys opened up the G3 conference, and they were fantastic. I love their music. I love what they bring to the table. But that is a great song to start off a service.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is.
Pat Barker:
And you can have a praise team singing it. The congregation can sing it. Kids can sing it. I mean, it really is just one of those that puts people, puts their minds and their hearts in a spirit of worship because everything is focused on the Lord. You’re lifting high the name of Christ. You’re talking about all of his attributes. And what better theme to start off a service with? So that one was my favorite to kick off a worship service.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I actually have to admit I didn’t think about what order I would sing them in from the standpoint of where I put them in this list. So I put at my number five, the old hymn, “‘Oh, how I love Jesus because he first loved me’,”
Pat Barker:
Yes
Daniel J. Mount:
Which is, it’s directly from verse 19, we love him because he first loved us, clear cut, clear connection there. And now I grew up singing this hymn in church, so I’ve known it pretty much my whole life. I have to admit, it’s not a hymn that I necessarily put as one of my top 10 or 20 favorite overall hymns. It’s a good hymn, I’m not saying it’s a personal favorite or anything like that, but it’s solid. And it’s a hymn that’s well
Pat Barker:
It is.
Daniel J. Mount:
known, just about everybody knows it, and because you have the clear connection to the passage and it’s as solid as everybody knows, I would include that one in the service if my church was preaching through this passage.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely. That’s a great hymn. We sing it a lot at my church. That’s for me, that’s kind of a chorus.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Pat Barker:
You know, you can go from one song right into “Oh, how I…” and everybody’s going to sing it. I agree with you.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. So what do you have at number four?
Pat Barker:
Alright, number four. So at our church, what we do is we have an opening hymn. And then, usually because we’re Baptist, we have announcements. [LAUGHTER] The pastor will come up and he will greet people and he will talk about the service and he will give a pastoral prayer. And so we like for something to come after the pastoral prayer. And so I chose “And This is Love”, GLAD, with that wonderful acapella rendition. It had been a long time Daniel since I had heard GLAD sing anything. They were some of my favorites back in the late 80s, early, mid 90s. Man those harmonies but I had forgotten that song existed.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is.
Pat Barker:
And now I don’t have five people at my church that could sing those harmonies, but it’s not a sing-along song. To me, it is a song that can come right after a pastoral prayer that’s dealing with that message of God’s love. And so for me, I thought that one really hit all the right chords.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s a really good song.
Pat Barker:
It is.
Daniel J. Mount:
And I would have to put that as one of my honorable mentions for the chapter.
Pat Barker:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
I didn’t have it in my top five only because I’m not a good enough singer to pull it off. I’m not sure there’s any realistic way to do it in my church.
Pat Barker:
I’m not either.
Daniel J. Mount:
So you’re a good singer, but that’s a hard song.
Pat Barker:
I didn’t say we were doing it this Sunday! I just said I’d like to! [LAUGHTER]
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, I would, too. That’s a good song. So the song I have at my number four actually is one that I don’t really think would be done congregationally. This is more one for personal edification. It’s kind of a fun song. I picked MercyMe’s song, “Greater.” The chorus says, “Greater is the one living inside of me than he who is living in the world.” That’s straight from I John 4:4. “He who is in you is greater than he who was in the world.”
Pat Barker:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
And this song is just fun. And sometimes there is a place for a fun song, even on Sunday morning church service.
Pat Barker:
I agree.
Daniel J. Mount:
My church is traditional enough. Um, it’s Southern Baptist church and a lot of the members are older and it’s just traditional enough in temperament, I couldn’t see it working as a congregational song, but it could definitely be done as a special music. And there is a value for songs from Scripture to edify us the rest of the week too.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely, and when you look at verses one through six, there’s not a ton of songs to go with one through six.
Daniel J. Mount:
No.
Pat Barker:
There’s not a lot of songs about spirits and you know, what is it, false spirits and all that kind of stuff. You have “greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.” You’ve got several songs that’ll help you there, but other than that, there’s really not a lot of representation in verses one through six.
So as many songs as we can get, and even in “Lift High the Name of Jesus,” it talks about that verse, where He is greater than what is in the world. And so I agree. We, we need as much representation between 1-6 as we have between, you know, 7-21.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, you know, this is part of a series I’m trying to go through every chapter of First John. I thought I’d take on a book that only had five chapters to kick this off rather than trying to
Pat Barker:
That’s a good idea.
Daniel J. Mount:
go through… I mean, I love Isaiah. I want to go through Isaiah sometime. Lining up 66 people to do one for each chapter. I’m not there yet.
Pat Barker:
Good luck with all that!
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, I thought I’d try to line up five first. But It’s come up every chapter that there are a few verses in each chapter that there are a number of really good songs from.
Daniel J. Mount:
And then there’s the rest of the chapter is barely touched in references.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
And you know, an immediate goal for this series is to get churches using the songs that are out there more effectively. and thinking if they have a series going through a book of the Bible, just thinking in these terms how can we use songs that reinforce the message of this book really well. But there’s also a longer-term goal I have in mind. I wouldn’t be surprised if a third of the audience of this podcast is songwriters. And I’m hoping to get songwriters thinking about using these verses that—because nobody else has been there before, practically. It’s like exploring Alaska versus the remote part of Alaska instead of going to New York City. It’s harder, but we have good songs on I John 4:4 because other people have shown us the way. And so it’s easier to come in steps somebody else has gone. There is room, and I think there can be really good songs from some of these passages that aren’t covered that well. And I hope to see it happen someday.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. You know, it’s funny our pastor will send us because he preaches verse to verse, you know
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Pat Barker:
And so he will send us what verses are coming up in the next few weeks to get us ready and we can look see what songs will go with the message And I will find—let’s say he’s doing nine or ten verses and I can find twenty songs in two of those verses and I can’t find any songs in the other seven or eight. And you want to be able to represent the full Scripture, but it’s almost impossible. It feels like it is. Anyway, I agree completely.
Daniel J. Mount:
I think I can say probably about as authoritatively as anybody who’s alive right now that it pretty much is impossible right now
Pat Barker:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Because I’ve listened to or read the lyrics of several hundred thousand songs for the Expository Songs database I do. Out of maybe 250,000 songs I’ve gone through, I have 52,000 song entries.
Pat Barker:
Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s a lot of song entries.
Pat Barker:
Yes, sir.
Daniel J. Mount:
But with that many song entries, there are plenty of verses or three, four, five verse stretches where there isn’t a single song in everything I have gone through. And that’s having gone through an awful lot of songs looking for them.
Pat Barker:
Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I can say it’s true. It’s not just you. It’s not just where you’re looking. There are a lot of multiverse sections that could be sung about. It’s not like they’re so dense. It’s not like—unless you’re Andrew Peterson, you’re not going to sing the genealogy of the start of Matthew very well. He had a song where he sang the genealogy and it was fun.
Pat Barker:
I do love Andrew Peterson.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, but unless you’re a writer as good as he is, you’re not going to sing the genealogy.
Pat Barker:
Right, you are correct.
Daniel J. Mount:
But there’s a lot of other passages that really are singable and have points. You know, a song, this is a little bit off topic of the songs we’re going through, but this is all good conversation. A song will often make two or three main points. First verse is a point. second verse is a point, they both tie into the chorus, and then you either have a third or fourth verse or you have a bridge, depending on your genre of music. But more or less a song makes three or four points. An expository sermon also makes three or four points. And has an application, just like a song usually will. If it’s preachable, it’s probably singable, but for many passages, it’s just been a case of nobody’s really tried.
Pat Barker:
Right. You’re right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I hope through this series and future episodes to help inspire writers to try. See what happens. It would be really cool.
Pat Barker:
Since I’m looking for a song for this Sunday, I need them to hurry up because there’s not a lot of songs about Jesus raising people from the dead, except maybe “Four Days Later.” You know, we’re in Luke and it’s Jesus heals the centurion and the slave and heals the, just touches the coffin and the person sits up in the coffin. Not a lot of songs about that, but then it goes right into, do not build your… house upon the sand, you know, build your foundation upon the rock. Well, there’s a thousand songs about building your foundation. Uh, not a lot about him touching the coffin and somebody sitting up from the dead.
Daniel J. Mount:
No.
Pat Barker:
So if somebody can write a touch the coffin song, that would be great. And I need it by this Sunday.
Daniel J. Mount:
The guest I had as the first artist interview in this series was Jamie Soles.
Pat Barker:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
He had a kids song called the “Gates of Nain” I think or something like that I think actually touches on when Jesus the widow who was her only son, that healing. He actually wrote a song on that, but that’s the only one that’s coming to mind at the moment. Of course when you’re talking about Lazarus. You know, you’ve got Lazarus songs.
Pat Barker:
Yes, oh there’s a bajillion songs about Lazarus.
Daniel J. Mount:
But he’s about the only one we sing about usually, so…
Pat Barker:
Yes, he is. Him and Jesus, that’s about the only two they think came back from the dead.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. But it’s like the exception proves the rule. I could think of one, and there might be a few others I’m not thinking of. There’s not much.
Pat Barker:
Right, I understand.
Daniel J. Mount:
I think we’re at number three.
Pat Barker:
We are? Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
So what do you have at number three?
Pat Barker:
All right. I have a guy that I didn’t know existed until I was in my mid-20s. I had a really good friend who introduced me to Paul Baloche. “Your Love Is Reaching Me.” I had not heard that song. But when I saw his name, I wanted to click on it and at least give it a shot. I loved some of his stuff, you know 25 years ago when I was introduced to him. It was so good lyrically and it’s singable. So, you know for me, of course, I’m looking now towards the offertory. We’re getting now towards the sermon part So when I’m looking at a song for an offertory where everybody can sing along, we’re leading right into the sermon, this one was perfect. Your love is reaching me and it said Your love is reaching me and I’m responding to it Your love is changing me and as I surrender to it. It’s such a great line. I love you. I love because you first loved me, straight from The passage so for me, I think this one comes right into the offering Everybody can sing along with it and we’re starting to focus on the sermon that’s just around the corner. So “Your Love is Reaching Me” was perfect for me.
Daniel J. Mount:
Cool. So, I’m pulling from a well-known hymn writer for my number three, but not one of his well-known hymns.
Pat Barker:
Okay.
Daniel J. Mount:
I am pulling a song called Greater Is He That Is In You by C. Austin Miles and J. Lincoln Hall.
Pat Barker:
Okay.
Daniel J. Mount:
C. Austin Miles had a couple songs he’ll still sing, but he’s best known for the song “In the Garden.” I know not all the people who listen to this podcast will love that hymn. There might be others for whom it’s a sentimental favorite. but there’s definitely a contingent of listeners who I think fairly critique the song for it not being clear enough what it’s talking about. This song on the other hand is very clear, straightforward. It’s from I John 4:4, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. And the chorus actually starts by quoting that. It says:
“Greater is He that is in you
Than he that is in the world,”
By whom the forces of evil
Shall from their pow’r be hurled;
This is your consolation,
This is your great salvation,
Greater is He that is in you
Than he that is in the world.
Pat Barker:
Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
And I think that the third and final verse is the strongest. And actually, this verse is probably the main reason I picked this song. It says:
Lay hold upon the promises,
And to the end endure;
For He who made them, well can keep
Your trusting soul secure
Pat Barker:
Wow. That is good
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s good!
Pat Barker:
They don’t write them like that anymore, Daniel!
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s why I picked that one.
Pat Barker:
That’s good stuff! Wow, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, I like it better than “In the Garden,” gotta admit.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, as you should. I do love “In the Garden.” I don’t have any problem with that song. That’s one of those where you know, it can go either way. But that is a nice song. But yeah, what you just read is deep, deep theology.
Daniel J. Mount:
And it’s simple.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s like, it’s that perfect blend of deep theology and something so simple that a seven year old can understand it.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely. Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
So what do you have at number two?
Pat Barker:
Number two, I’ve got one of my favorite singers in the world, Steve Green What a voice and what a gentleman, what a representative of the faith. I love Steve Green. I started listening to him when I was singing tenor. So I was buying all of his soundtracks: “Find us Faithful,” “Come and See,” “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee,” “People Need the Lord.” I mean, just keep going and going. And then my voice changed. But I like this song so much, I just sang everything an octave lower. I did him no justice!
But I met him a few years ago at PraiseFest in Branson. And just one of the kindest people gave me all the time in the world. And man, I just love Steve Green.
But “God is Love” was my song that I would have the choir or I would have a trio sing this right before what I would call the special So at our church we have the offertory song and then we have a song during the offering, and they’re right after the offering song. We have a scripture and then you have a song right before the message. So everything is based around prayer and Scripture and songs that first 30-35 minutes. There’s just a lot of scriptures, a lot of prayers, and a lot of music, and then the rest of the service of course is the preaching. So this one would be a really good song to come off of Paul Baloche. But God is love. “If God is love, then love we trust. We trust God because God is love. If we love, we know that we have God because God is love.” And so I think that really is, “And love will heal us because God is love.” It’s so good. And his
Daniel J. Mount:
It is.
Pat Barker:
That voice and those harmonies, that melody, everything about it is such a great song to get everything focused in on what’s coming up. And it’s just, it’s one of those that has the ability to not necessarily quote the Scripture, but is scriptural in everything that it’s saying. It doesn’t necessarily have to pull a verse. and use that, but everything it’s saying is Scriptural, which I find fascinating that a writer can do that.
Daniel J. Mount:
Steve Green is a very good ambassador for contemporary Christian music, but even more for the Kingdom of God.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
Steve Green is maybe one of the best examples, maybe even the best, of why when there are the—I don’t think it’s as bad as it used to be years ago—but the worship wars years ago of people who are like, we’re hymns-only, we’re contemporary-only—hymns are stuffy—sometimes some accusations were thrown around of CCM being less serious, less in depth, whatever. And there certainly are shallow CCM songs. There’s some shallow old hymns too. They’re the ones who didn’t survive, for a reason.
Pat Barker:
Oh yeah,
Daniel J. Mount:
There are sadly shallow songs in every generation. And it’s fine to point out there are bad examples of songs in a genre of music because it’s true of every genre. But there were a few people who tried to go beyond that and say that everything that came out of a particular genre is shallow, not of God. Whatever you want to paint that brush with, there are even people who said it of Southern Gospel, Southern Gospel, CCM. There are people who have gone out and said everything that came out of this genre is shallow. It’s a lot harder to do that when you’re really seriously considering the whole body of work of somebody who is as thoughtful about singing songs that are both true and beautiful as Steve is.
Pat Barker:
Yes, absolutely and I mean I named just a handful of his songs. “Oh may all who come behind us find us faithful / May the fire of our devotion light our way.”
Daniel J. Mount:
That is one of my favorites.
Pat Barker:
I mean, those are lyrics that stick with you for decades. Obviously, I sang that when I was 14 or 15 years old and I can still remember all of those wonderful lines. So good!
Daniel J. Mount:
Broken and spilled out. That…
Pat Barker:
Yes, our choir is learning that song right now. We’re gonna do that in a couple of weeks. So good.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s a song that I’ve never figured out and it’s such a harmony-friendly song too. I have never figured out why there hasn’t been some Southern Gospel group or another along the way do a just a rich harmonies version of that song.
Pat Barker:
Well, Lord willing, there will be. This helped remind me of that great song. And I heard those harmonies and I thought hmm, I think we might be able to pull that off. So Lord willing, I might be able to get that in the queue.
Daniel J. Mount:
It was so good!
So what I have at my number two is actually a song from a passage that I don’t think either of us has pulled a song from before. And that’s part of why I picked this song. It’s from I John 4:20, which says, If someone says, “I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen. How can he love God whom he has not seen?” This is one of those passages that there aren’t many good songs for.
Pat Barker:
Right, you’re right.
Daniel J. Mount:
But at least there is one good song. And I think the best song I could find from this passage was, “Whom Having Not Seen I Love” by Maude Frazier and Charles H. Gabriel, late 1800s.
Pat Barker:
Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
Maude Frazier is not a well-known hymn writer, but Charles Gabriel on the other hand, a composer and sometimes lyricist, he either wrote or co-wrote songs like “Higher Ground,” “My Savior’s Love (I Stand Amazed in the Presence),” “His Eye Is On the Sparrow,” “Send the Light,” “Will the Circle Be Unbroken,” “Since Jesus Came into My Heart.” I mean, start asking which songs didn’t he co-write!
Pat Barker:
Alright, just to name a few.
Daniel J. Mount:
There are many churches that would sing as many Charles Gabriel songs as Fanny Crosby songs. Fanny Crosby is just a better known name.
Pat Barker:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So, this song isn’t as well known as those, but with his track record especially, I’d definitely say it’s worth giving a try, especially when you consider lyrics like verse 2.
2 In vain may fancy, strive to trace
My Savior’s beauty and His grace;
More fair than I can dream, His face,
Whom, having not seen, I love.
And then the chorus:
And He is preparing a place
For me in His home above,
Where I shall behold His face,
Whom, having not seen, I love.
Pat Barker:
Wow.
Daniel J. Mount:
I like that!
Pat Barker:
I do too. That’s amazing.
Daniel J. Mount:
So what song do you have at number one?
Pat Barker:
Okay, so I didn’t know this song existed. I am a big Lee Black fan. My brother has worked with him some in the studio. I knew of some of his work, you know, as far as songwriting. I had heard him fill in with Karen Peck. I had heard him when he filled in with Legacy 5 and then of course joined him full time. But I did not really know him as a singer. I had never met him. I had not heard a lot of his solo stuff. I just knew his Southern Gospel stuff that groups had recorded. So when you had this in the list and I saw Lee Black’s name, I thought, “I’m going to click on that and just see what it is.” And to see him sitting at that piano and singing this song, I listened to it over and over and over. It truly is. And I could only find one person who had recorded it. Ross King.
Daniel J. Mount:
He was a co-writer on the song.
Pat Barker:
Thank you for saying that; I did not know.
Daniel J. Mount:
Not a problem.
Pat Barker:
So that’s the only person I had seen a recording of. So I just kept watching him at the piano over and over and that is truly that’s one of the most touching Scriptural get-me-focused on what the pastor is about to say Kind of songs. And it really helps you fully understand what it means for God to love you before you could love Him. Because we’ll hear that and it kind of we’ve heard it so much it just kind of in one ear and out the other sometimes but that song really allowed me to just sit back and close my eyes and focus on the fact that God loved me first and then that caused me to love Him. His love was put on me first. I really was blown away by that song.
I sent Lee a message. I said, “Has anyone in Southern Gospel recorded this?” I’m not sure. I haven’t heard back from him. I just, if you haven’t heard that song, those watching this, just go to YouTube or there may be a link somewhere. But it’s just really one of the most fantastic lyrics and melodies. And the heart that Lee sings it with in that video really did touch me. And I thought, “Man, if there’s any song I’d want to put before the pastor coming up to open up this Scripture, it would be that song.” Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
As far as I know, nobody in Southern Gospels ever recorded it. So it’s interesting when we look at this chapter, some of the other chapters in 1 John, chapter 1, chapter 2, there aren’t that many good songs from.
Pat Barker:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So there’s a few, but there’s just not many. So when I recorded both the chapter 1 and chapter 2 episodes, in both cases I had like three songs of overlap with my guest.
Pat Barker:
I saw that.
Daniel J. Mount:
And that hasn’t been the case in this chapter, although in both cases we’re both naming songs the other one knows and likes, there’s just enough good songs in this chapter that we didn’t have any overlap.
Until now.
Pat Barker:
[LAUGHTER] Oh, you reeled me in, Daniel. I was ready.
Daniel J. Mount:
Because this song was also my number one.
Pat Barker:
So good.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, and despite how many good songs there are from this chapter—I kind of feel like, you know, in chapter two, there’s a number of good songs, and then there’s “Before the Throne of God Above,”
Pat Barker:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
It so obviously stands above the rest. All the other ones are good. That one is like one of the all-time greats that happens to come from that chapter. I actually feel like I John 4 is that kind of chapter, too, but it’s among a higher caliber of songs—
Pat Barker:
It is.
Daniel J. Mount:
But even amongst this higher caliber of songs, I do feel like this is the sort of chapter where there is one song that clearly stands head and shoulders above everything else from the chapter, and it’s “Because He Loved Me First.” I really think it’s that that’s the case with this song.
Pat Barker:
Complete agreement.
Daniel J. Mount:
So this song was written by co-writers, you know, Lee Black, who’s known in Southern Gospel, and he might have done some choral work, and Ross King, who’s done some solo work in CCM. I don’t think anybody else in Southern Gospel’s recorded it. And this song also hasn’t gained wide recognition, or for that matter, that I know of really any recognition in modern hymn circles—of the sort of churches that would sing Getty music, City Alight, Sovereign Grace music. This song is a modern hymn, structurally.
Pat Barker:
Yes, absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is structurally, that is exactly what it is, a modern hymn. And although it hasn’t gained wide recognition in modern hymn circles, it deserves it.
Pat Barker:
It does.
Daniel J. Mount:
I would go farther than saying it’s the best song I know from this passage. I’ve been familiar with this song, I think, since he wrote it, because I think he was subscribed to his channel at that point. I think it is one of the ten best modern hymns I’ve ever heard. Anything from the Gettys, anything from anywhere else. I’m putting this one in the top ten, and I’m also putting it in the top ten of best songs I’ve heard from any source anywhere in the last decade or so.
Pat Barker:
No disagreement here, my friend!
Daniel J. Mount:
I mean, you talk about hidden gems. This is as gem as a hidden gem can get. This song deserves to be talked about when people are talking about “Power of the Cross” or “In Christ Alone” or “Christ is Mine Forevermore” or “Come Behold the Wondrous Mystery.” This song deserves to be talked about in those sorts of conversations.
Pat Barker:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s an amazing song that needs so much more attention than it’s received so far.
Pat Barker:
I agree. 100% agree with you. And I will listen to it again tonight and I’ll listen to it tomorrow. It will be on my heavy rotation with Lee Black singing it. It’s just so, so good.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, I completely agree. Same here. And I hope that maybe this podcast could do a little something to get a few churches taking a good look at this song.
Pat Barker:
I know my church is gonna sing it.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s good!
Pat Barker:
We can add one to the list!
Daniel J. Mount:
Great. Were there any other songs that came up as you were going through this that you wanted to make a particular honorable mention of?
Pat Barker:
My honorable mention is going to be a little different. I will give an honorable mention to Sovereign Grace Music. I love Sovereign Grace Music. It broke my heart to not put something from Sovereign Grace Music on here. Probably every few months, I’ll sing “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus,” or I’ll sing something else from Sovereign Grace Music. Our choir will sing something.
I love what they do at Sovereign Grace and I love City Alight and I love the Gettys and all that. But for those of you who aren’t familiar, if maybe you’re just watching this because I’m a Southern Gospel singer and Daniel was so involved with Southern Gospel and you don’t really know what Sovereign Grace Music is, give Sovereign Grace Music a chance. It’s really, really good stuff. It’s solid lyrics, the harmonies, the melodies, the worship. I saw several songs from Sovereign Grace Music on there, but it just didn’t crack that top five of what I was needing for my service when the preacher was going to be preaching for I John 4 But I give a big nod to Sovereign Grace. They were at the G3 conference I spoke about; the Gettys opened that up, but Sovereign Grace did the entire weekend And that was my introduction just a few years ago to Sovereign Grace Music So they really blessed me that weekend and I just got everything they had and they’re in my Apple Music right at the top. I just listen to them all the time. So that would really be where I’d put an honorable mention is just Sovereign Grace Music as a whole. People need to give that a chance if they have it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, the song, ‘Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus,” there will be a few people listening to this who will know exactly what you’re talking about, but I think it’s worth me throwing in a little passing comment here that they took the first, they took actually the chorus—
Pat Barker:
They did the chorus.
Daniel J. Mount:
—of the beloved hymn by that same name, they took the chorus and wrote as the first verse and then wrote new verses and a new chorus.
Pat Barker:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
So when you hear him mention “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus,” it’s not just that they put out a nice rendition of the old hymn. There’s actually some new content to the song, too. And that new content is definitely worth going in and taking a look.
Pat Barker:
It is. It’s really hard to take a grand old hymn or something that’s very familiar, add to it, and not mess it up.
Daniel J. Mount:
I agree.
Pat Barker:
They did it. They they were able to build a whole story of salvation and of Christ and the beginning to the end and focus everything on Jesus and not mess that hymn up. I mean, it really is spectacular. I actually posted a video a few months ago of me and my daughter Emma, our 12-year-old, singing it together at our church.
I love Sovereign Grace. Again, you may not know what that is, just YouTube it or whatever. You can go to their website and look at some of their music, but it’s so solid Biblically.
Daniel J. Mount:
They have a lot of really good songs.
Pat Barker:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
And while we’re talking Sovereign Grace, why not? Anything else jump out to you as another particular couple of favorites that somebody who might be hearing about it for the first time, listen to that one. What are a couple others you’d suggest listening to? I’ll throw out “Before the Throne of God Above.”
Pat Barker:
Well, I would go through their list. I’m trying to pull it up here because it’s been several years since I did this If you um go through their list of songs—they had a new one that just came out a little bit ago, but if you look at their hymns that they’ve redone—go through their list of songs and say, okay, so there’s “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus,” “All Creatures of Our God and King,” Oh Come All Ye Faithful,” “Oh the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus,”—find songs that you’re familiar with and listen to them sing those songs.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Pat Barker:
And then start to put in some new songs. That’s what I did and I think it really helped me. Because if I just started with some new songs I wasn’t familiar with and I’m trying to sing along and get them I might become uninterested just because I’m, you know, kind of half-witted anyway. “O Come, O Come, Emmanuel,” “it Is Well with my Soul.” They have a ton of hymns that they’ve put their spin on. Um, and some of them they sing them just like they’re written. Some they add a little bit of a bridge or a chorus. So I would flip through some of those grand old hymns. Listen to them do it. You’ll fall in love with it. And then you can start listening to some of their newer stuff because it all goes together. It all sounds like modern hymns to me
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, I think I’ll throw out a couple more song recommendations of songs of theirs that I really love that might be a bit of deep cuts. Again, this is primarily for the benefit of somebody who doesn’t already know their music well. And because I spent years writing about Southern Gospel, I think I can also somewhat speak to songs that somebody who likes Southern Gospel would be inclined to resonate with and hear something in. And so I’ll just mention two. There’s a that again is also very hymn-like in its format, called “There Blooms A Rose in Bethlehem.”
Pat Barker:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
It is just this phenomenal Christmas song that talks about the Scripture passages referring to Jesus as say the Rose of Sharon and so forth and the prophecies of him being born in Bethlehem. But The last verse says, “This flower in bloom, a scent so sweet, that greets us in the air / it has dispelled with hopefulness the sting of death’s despair. / Foretold this rose was born to die, but would not see decay, / so those who place their faith in him shall blossom from the grave.” That gets me every time. I get choked up every time I see that.
Pat Barker:
That’s so good!
Daniel J. Mount:
And then speaking of passages that aren’t sung about very often, this song, the name of Mephibosheth doesn’t come up in this song, but they have a song called “Prepared a Place for Me” that talks about our adoption in Christ. Without ever using the name of Mephibosheth, it pulls on the imagery of King David inviting the crippled grandson of the former King, King Saul, to come to his table and eat with him the rest of his days. And uses that just to paint this powerful picture of our adoption in Christ, and our being invited to come to Jesus’ table, though we were also once his enemies. So I’d say, if you’re checking out Sovereign Grace for the first time, check out the ones we mentioned, also check out those two.
Pat Barker:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
So, before we wrap up, I would like to ask—and we’ve already talked about this a little bit for the first part of the chapter—but overall, how satisfied are we with the songs from this chapter?
Pat Barker:
very you know like we said and you just reminded us you know the first few verses don’t really have a lot that we can look at we’ve got the greater is he that is in me and we’ve talked about that but when you look at 7-21, then my goodness, it’s bountiful!
Daniel J. Mount:
It is!
Pat Barker:
I mean, when you sent me the list—now here’s just maybe what you would see as the best ones, and then here’s all of them—
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Pat Barker:
It’s unbelievable. I mean, it’s almost a whole small hymnal of songs that deal with God’s love, us loving others, us having the love of God in us, God loving us first. Thank God, there is a plethora of songs about that, because I don’t how can I say this: When you try to deal with the love of God, I don’t think you’ll scratch the surface if you write a million songs about it. So the more songs, the better.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Pat Barker:
Before I heard that Lee Black song I might think that “The Love of God” is going to be the best song about the love of God, right?
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Pat Barker:
“Could we with ink the ocean feel and were the skies of parchment made.” But then I hear Lee’s song and I’m like, “Wow, that’s right up there with ‘The Love of God,’ when I think about how deep and full those lyrics are.” So I just say, the more the merrier when we’re dealing with God’s love because it’s never-ending, it’s unsearchable. We’re never going to scratch the surface on how much He really loves us until we see Him face to face. And so the more songs, the better, if you ask me.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. So I think my answer to this question would actually be pretty similar. I think that the first. few verses are not covered well and there’s a verse or two here and there that we look through the rest of the chapter, and I’m like, you know, there’s not been that much from that chapter.
Now the goal was I would have taped the episode for chapter 3 already, but my guest had something come up. We had to push that back probably to next week, so I’m going to record them out of order. So I haven’t taped three yet. But my general sense, without having recorded that and heard a second perspective on 3, is that Chapter 4 is the chapter that we have the best set of resources for singing this chapter well. There is room for improvement, especially those first few verses, but I do think we’re better off in Chapter 4 than anywhere else in the book. And it’s nice given you have chapters like one and five that you’re really kind of having to scrape and look pretty hard to find some good songs.
Pat Barker:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s nice to have a chapter here where you can be like, you know, this chapter actually is covered pretty well.
Pat Barker:
Yeah, and to have all those songs and then us fall on the same number one, folks: That shows you how good that number one song is.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Pat Barker:
You’ve got to look it up
Daniel J. Mount:
All right. Well, about to wrap up. We already talked about this at the start, but just as a refresher, where can people hear you singing these days?
Pat Barker:
Well, with the Guardians, unless they want to come over to First Baptist Williams on those Sundays I’m home. GuardiansQuartet.com, they can check out our schedule. Look us up on Youtube. Just type in Guardians Quartet on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all those wonderful things. But yeah, if anyone’s watching, they’d love to come see us. I pick out the songs. John Darin Rowsey writes most of our sings.
This is how I put a Guardians program together: We give an invitation every night, a solid Scriptural invitation. We have people who come and speak to us after the service about Christ, and we share the full gospel with them. I give them Bibles and whatever we can because that is the focus of the group. And so you’ll hear Biblical songs, you’ll laugh some and worship a lot. And our final prayer is that Jesus’ name is on your lips and ours are not because that’s really, truly where we want the focus to be.
Daniel J. Mount:
Wonderful. Well, thank you for taking the time to come on today and do this. I really appreciate it.
Pat Barker:
Hey pleasure Daniel. I love you, buddy—we’ve been friends a long time.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you! Yes, we have been!
Pat Barker:
I just wish we could see each other more.
Daniel J. Mount:
I agree. And I also thank you for taking the opportunity for those who primarily see you in an onstage capacity to see you in a different light. I think it’s really I think it’s cool because I saw you on stage and I was like, “Yeah, he’s a good singer. He’s really good singer. So he’s a very good bass singer.” But it was only once we started talking, I realized there’s a lot more than just the, the onstage persona and the vocal talent. There’s, there’s, you have a thoughtfulness, a thoughtful approach to songs and to Scripture that I’m really grateful we have the opportunity to highlight that side of what you do and the side you do that’s connected to church music also in this podcast. So thank you for that!
Pat Barker:
Hey, it’s my pleasure. Thank you!
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah. All right. Well, to wrap this up, listeners, to hear future episodes, you can subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find episode transcriptions and the free 52,000-song searchable Expository Songs database at danielmount.com. Thank you for listening.