Video
Audio
Show notes
Song Links
I John 2:1-2: Arise, My Soul, Arise (Charles Wesley)
Lyrics: https://hymnary.org/text/arise_my_soul_arise_shake_off_thy_guilty
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0qZ3h_dMGs
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txORG5p8kx8 (Indelible Grace)
I John 2:1: His speaking blood (Charles Wesley)
Lyrics: https://hymnary.org/text/father_hear_the_blood_of_jesus
I John 2:1-2: Before the Throne of God Above (Charitie Bancroft)
Lyrics: https://hymnary.org/text/before_the_throne_of_god_above_i_have_a_
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LULK2nZ6sCc
I John 2:15-17: What Is the World to Me (August Crull, Georg M. Pfefferkorn)
Lyrics: https://hymnary.org/text/what_is_the_world_to_me
I John 2:15: You Love the World (Keith Green/Keith Green)
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynk6qz_8rIg
I John 2:15: Yet You Call (Freedom Quartet/Dianne Wilkinson, Daniel J. Mount)
Lyrics: https://danielmount.com/songs/yet-you-call/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn4UZ9nMNdY
I John 2:1: God of my life, to Thee I call (William Cowper)
Lyrics: https://hymnary.org/text/god_of_my_life_to_thee_i_call
David Hill Links
https://www.davidhillmusic.net/
https://www.instagram.com/david.hill.music/
Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Daniel J. Mount:
Welcome to the Expository Songs podcast. We discuss songs where the main idea of a passage of scripture is the main idea of a song. My name is Daniel Mount and today we’re looking at songs from 1 John chapter 2. I have the honor to be joined today by David Hill. Welcome!
David Hill:
Thank you, Daniel.
Daniel J. Mount:
So Dr. David Hill is a composer, he’s also a worship leader, and he also has a Ph.D. in music. So he’s able to evaluate songs from a number of different perspectives. And I value your insight and appreciate the time you took today to come on. Thank you!
David Hill:
Thank you, my pleasure.
Daniel J. Mount:
So a little look behind the scenes of recording this podcast. We’re recording this episode a little bit out of order. By the time this episode comes out, we should have both recorded and posted another episode where he’s speaking about a song he recently released. Dave, there will probably be some people who listen to this podcast who haven’t listened to the other one, so if you like, just take a minute, introduce yourself, and share the name of the song and where people can find it.
David Hill:
Okay, thank you. That was a great introduction. Yeah, so it’s my first single and it’s called “Our Glorious Hope.” And it’s a collaboration with my dear friend Hunter Lynch. And so you can find that on Spotify, “Our Glorious Hope,” or any of the you know, any of the streaming services. Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you. So we have each picked what we think are five of the best songs from I John 2. Before we get going, I wanted to say a word about how we pick and the audience we have in mind. And we may have a little bit of different criteria so we can both speak to this.
I’m thinking, first and foremost: “Will this song work in a church context and how well will it work?” But that’s not the only framework I’m looking at a song through, because there’s at least one song in here that I’m just gonna say upfront, this song probably doesn’t have any place in a church service. But there’s a time and a place for songs for our edification the other six days of the week too. So I’m looking at it first and foremost for good congregational songs. But not every song is necessarily congregational. So I definitely, in this episode and throughout the rest of the series, plan to include some that aren’t. Dave, do you have any thoughts on your thought process as you were picking songs?
David Hill:
Yeah, so same as you, I was thinking about what’s congregational. But like you, I chose some that may have some challenges in being congregational. With me, most of the problem would just be that they’re a little bit outdated and archaic.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
David Hill:
Yeah. So my criteria for… The top was, since this is Expository Songs, I was trying to think of what would encapsulate most the scripture. But at the same time, I’m looking for good poetry, good music. And sometimes, some of these have really great poetry and not so great music. But yeah, so those were my criteria.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, that’s it is good or we can get both good poetry and good music, but it’s a challenge and some books are better than others. You know, if we’re going through the Psalms, we can find something that’s magnificent for virtually every Psalm. A couple of the most imprecatory Psalms, we might be a little challenged to find something amazing, but most Psalms we can find something really good. A couple other epistles, you know, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Romans. We can find all the good songs we want to from a number of chapters. It is a little more of a challenge in I John 2. We both, I think, had to put in a little extra time to think through which ones are ones we really want to include here.
David Hill:
Exactly, yeah. And I found that to me, I was looking for what captures the tone and that idea of misdirected love, that this chapter is very, very much… pointing toward and then also this overall sense of confidence at the same time
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
that John brings and those are really difficult things to keep in tension. And so with most of these songs—I would say with any of my top five, they address one of those three things, but almost none of them addresses all three at once.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. One other thing you mentioned in the initial criteria that jumped out to me was archaic language. I think it’s just worth mentioning in passing, that’s more an issue in some churches than others.
David Hill:
Exactly.
Daniel J. Mount:
Like your church, from what we talked about, you probably wouldn’t do too much of this archaic language unless it’s a song everybody already knows. Everybody’s fine singing it when it’s “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” or “Joy to the World.” If there’s an archaism in there, no big deal.
My church, most of the people are 65 plus. You know, a song with older language, that’s what they grew up singing. It wouldn’t phase us. So it’s not as big an issue, which is a good thing because most of the songs on my list have archaic language, I think, in this one.
David Hill:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So we talked before we started recording and I asked and you preferred that I’ll go first, so I’m going to bring up my fifth-place song which is Keith Green’s “You Love the World.” It is a reflection on 1 John 2.15 which says, “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” I’m gonna be honest, this song wouldn’t fit in most church services. It’s not congregational.
David Hill:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
But even for churches that have special musics, Keith Green’s style is inimitable. And I mean that in the original sense of the word, which cannot be imitated, most people, virtually everybody, can’t pull off a Keith Green song and make it sound like Keith Green.
David Hill:
Right. [Laughter]
Daniel J. Mount:
So that’s just stylistically. And then there’s like a lyrical challenge too, for the purposes of congregational. He loved to write songs of conviction. Those were songs that a number of fans and even industry people in his generation would have called prophetic. And they don’t mean prophetic in the sense of reveals new truth or reveals something about the future we didn’t know already. They mean prophetic in the other sense. Most of the Old Testament prophets are prophets bringing God’s words of reproof on the sins of the people. And that is a place Keith Green wrote from fairly often, including this song. And lyrically, as well as musically, this just wouldn’t fit in most churches, which is why I didn’t even have it in my top five initially.
And it was kind of a last-minute thing. I was like, you know, I think I will bring it up, because with these caveats, there is a time and place for songs that call us to reflect on truths of Scripture the other six days of the week, even if they don’t fit in a service. And this song has a place there. It is convicting. Whether or not the things that tempt us are the same things he was singing about, we all have those things that tempt us to love the world too much, love the world more than we love Jesus, love the world to the detriment of loving Jesus. And this song is just so thoughtful that I thought I would mention it here, even though it’s not congregational. So, Dave, what do you have at number five?
David Hill:
Well, I just want to mention your number five really fast.
Daniel J. Mount:
Sure.
David Hill:
I just want to add that the piano part in this is crazy because I listened to this whenever I was preparing for this podcast and I was just so impressed by several different things musically and the piano part was one of them. It was really enjoyable. Yeah. So, I second everything you said about… about Keith Green and I think that was, he has a tremendous amount of energy with that prophetic word too.
Yeah, my number five is “What is the World to Me?” And this is interesting because it’s, yeah, because it’s got,
Daniel J. Mount:
Same verse.
David Hill:
it’s the same verse, that’s right. So verse 15, and so this captures that theme that I mentioned before which is the misdirected love. And I didn’t know this hymn tune at all before this, but it’s a pleasant hymn tune. It’s nice. But that was my number five. It’s a completely new song to me.
I know we’re gonna talk about this at the end of the episode, you mentioned, but I John 2 just doesn’t have that many songs that we instantly think of, that instantly come to mind, that are already in use. So then we have to kind of mine and go into these rare jewels that you have hidden in your Expository Songs. This is a plug for Daniel’s Expository Songs amazing database on his website, danielmount.com.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you. I completely agree on this song. As a matter of fact, I have this song at my number two overall for this chapter. And the song I have at number one is from a different passage. So when we’re speaking of something that’s coming from verses 15 through 17 on loving the world and the things of the world. I think this is the best of what we have. I’ll just read a verse or two to highlight this as public domain so I can get away with it. I’ll read verses 1 and 3.
1 What is the world to me
with all its vaunted pleasure
when you, and you alone,
Lord Jesus, are my treasure!
You only, dearest Lord,
my soul’s delight shall be;
you are my peace, my rest.
What is the world to me!
And then verse 3 pulls somewhat from James three or four, the life is a vapor passage:
3 The world is like a cloud
and like a vapor fleeting,
a shadow that declines,
swift to its end retreating.
My Jesus shall remain,
though all things fade and flee,
my everlasting rock.
What is the world to me!
That is so good!
David Hill:
It is. It really is!
Daniel J. Mount:
I looked up a little bit on the history of this one because I hadn’t been familiar with it till working on the Expository Songs project. It was originally a German hymn written by Georg Michael Pfefferkorn who lived in the 1600s, 1645-1732. So originally German, it was translated into English by August Crull who was a Lutheran college professor in Missouri in the mid 1800s. And from everything I can find online, this song is sung in churches in the United States,
David Hill:
Hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
but almost exclusively in churches of one denomination, Lutheran. The Lutherans pull from the golden age of German hymnody, which was 1600s. I’d say lyrically the golden age of English language hymnody was 1700s, but the Germans had such a strong run in the 1600s. A number of amazing songs from a number of amazing writers. We know very few of them because the Lutherans are about the only ones who sing them. And for the rest of us, that’s our loss, because this song is phenomenal.
David Hill:
Alright, I guess it’s your turn then.
Daniel J. Mount:
I guess it is. So I have at number four, “Arise, My Soul, Arise” by Charles Wesley. And for this one, we’re actually going back to the start of the chapter. 1st John 2, 1 and 2 says, “My little children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. and he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
This song is really an amazing song. It’s one of Charles Wesley’s best. And it might not be one of his five best-known songs, but I’d say it’s almost certainly one of his 10 or 15 best-known hymns. On the strength of the song alone, it’s one of the strongest songs from this chapter. The only reason I have it at number four instead of three, two, or one, is that it’s a little more loosely connected to the source text than those I have at three, two, and one. It is strongly tied thematically with some references and wording. And in fact, I have a second Wesley song in my top five that’s even more closely tied to this passage.
But here’s the thing, and it’s a challenge that I keep in mind and we keep in mind as we go through this. Most churches would have a hard time introducing a new song every week. So when you’re going through a sermon series through a book of the Bible, sometimes you have to sing songs you already know. And if you’re a church that already knows “Arise My Soul Arise,” definitely sing it when you’re going through 1 John 2. If you don’t know it, you might introduce it anyhow, because it’s a really good song, and it’s a song you can keep singing year-round for the rest of the life of the church. But especially if you already know it, it’s worth doing.
One other thought here is that there are a number of melodies associated with this hymn. There’s no one melody that is the melody for the hymn. And to that end, there are several that are in old hymnals. I would recommend if your church doesn’t do it at all, and if you like something that’s a little more current or contemporary, check out the Indelible Grace retuning of this hymn by Kevin Twit. I was in a church for a number of years that sang this song regularly, sang that version of the song. It was one of the best-known and loved songs in that church. That melody works really well for this song.
Dave, any thoughts on this song before we go on to your number four?
David Hill:
Yeah, I would just say the only tune I’m familiar with is the Lennox tune.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay?
David Hill:
And that’s Edson, I think, Louis Edson?
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay?
David Hill:
Or Louis Edson? But yeah, and I was just going to say about that one, that one works really well as an opener and can also be done with a contemporary band pretty fairly easily because it’s got a slower harmonic rhythm as in the chord changes are not super fast. So yeah, I was gonna say because that’s always a difficulty if you were going through through this chapter, that would be a great song to start off with, you know.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, so this song was actually on your top five, right?
David Hill:
It was, yeah, that was number three for me. Yep.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s your number three. All right, so what do you have at your number four?
David Hill:
Yeah, my number four, that’s you.
Daniel J. Mount:
Oh! Okay.
David Hill:
This is “Yet You Call,” which was a collaboration between you and Diane Wilkinson, right?
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
Yeah, I just love these lyrics. They’re so tight. And the reason it’s down lower is because, as you said, it’s more loosely related to the—
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s like the first line or two is straight out of loving the world.
David Hill:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
Then it moves on to other themes. Yeah.
David Hill:
But you do one of the things. And. You know, those who are watching may not know this, but you and I collaborate a lot.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
And typically you’re the lyrics and I’m the music. And one thing that you do that I love is you like to use the same words, but they have a slightly different meaning in a different context. So you have this little play on words that happens in the last verse with, “yet you call me home.”
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
So much of the song is about identity and what God says about us and what Christ’s sacrifice does in our standing to God. But in the last verse, you take this play on words and you’re talking about, “and yet you call us home,” talking about kind of all the things that we’re planning for and then we get called home in the end. So I love that. And I also enjoyed the harmonies at the end. Let’s see, what key is that in? Do you remember?
Daniel J. Mount:
The version that was recorded by Freedom Quartet, which I think is the only version on streaming, as I recall, was recorded in F sharp, although they may have taken it up a step or a half a step for the last verse. They may have finished it in G or A flat.
David Hill:
I really liked, was that you? Did you come up with this?
Daniel J. Mount:
That was not me.
David Hill:
That was not you, okay. I just enjoyed that chord progression. Also from the 6th down to the 4th. Yeah, I thought that was really nice.
Daniel J. Mount:
So since you bring it up, I can share a little context and background into that one.
David Hill:
Yeah, please.
Daniel J. Mount:
I was… I’m not sure it was my first attempt at writing something congregational, but if not, it was very close to the first. I think it may have been the first congregational song I finished. And I’d say it was roughly 2010 or 2011 that I wrote it I wrote the words to the verses was all I had. I sent it to Dianne. I think I collaborated with her once maybe twice before that point—I sent it to her and she wrote the melody and she wrote the bridge lyrics as well.
David Hill:
I love those by the way.
Daniel J. Mount:
She did a really good job with both. And it is so different from almost everything else she’s written She’s gonna come up a number of times Lord willing as we proceed through this series because she wrote from Scripture a lot. But most of what she did was intentionally very Southern Gospel. She’s one of the most decorated Southern gospel songwriters of all time, one of the most awarded, one of the most number one hits, you name it. But when she heard that, she’s like, “Daniel, that sounds like it should come right out of the hymnal. So I’m gonna see what I can do that sounds like a hymn.” And she just knocked it out of the park. I love what she did with it.
David Hill:
That’s exactly what I was going to say was that for those pastors or worship leaders that are looking at this, I think this can work really well as a hymn.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you!
David Hill:
And I don’t know what you think of this suggestion, Daniel, but you could also, the bridge could also be adapted to, I think, to be used as a chorus and be between multiple verses.
Daniel J. Mount:
Sure, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. You have a hard time transposing because in the arrangement of the song, it transposes at the end of the bridge
David Hill:
Oh, right.
Daniel J. Mount:
and if you’re taking it up a key, then that makes it a bit of a killer for the musicians.
David Hill:
Yeah, but I think melodically though it can just stay right where it’s at.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
That song is probably one of the most personal I’ve written, even though it’s very congregational. When I was writing it, I had written down a few thoughts, but I remember exactly where I was. I was in the produce section of Ingles, the grocery store down south, on Haywood Road, in the Asheville area, and I was just overcome with the concepts, especially of verses one and two. It’s the contrast of how undeserving we are. And yet, God calls us clean. And yet, God calls us sons. It’s amazing. It’s an amazing concept.
David Hill:
It is. It is. It’s a beautiful song. Great job with it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Thank you so much. I have forgotten where we are. What was that number for you?
David Hill:
I just did my number four.
Daniel J. Mount:
So that brings me to my number three, I believe. Which, going back to Charles Wesley: “His Speaking Blood.” This is a largely unknown Wesley lyric, and it’s largely unknown because there aren’t really any melodies that are strongly associated with it. I think with the right melody, there’s a place for this. It just doesn’t really have one at this point.
And like “Arise, My Soul, Arise,” it also comes from I John 2:1. I’ll read it again. “My little children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Since this one’s public domain, and it’s only four verses and they’re short verses, I’m actually going to read the whole thing. It says:
Father, hear the blood of Jesus
Speaking in thine ears above
From impending wrath release us
Manifest Thy pardoning love
O receive us to Thy favor
For His only sake receive
Give us to the bleeding Savior
Let us by His dying live
“To thy pardoning grace receive them”
Once He prayed upon the tree
Still His blood cries out, “Forgive them
“All their sins were laid on me”
And then it’s verse four, I think, that is most closely tied in wording to I John 2
Still our Advocate in Heaven
Prays the prayer on earth begun
“Father, show their sins forgiven!
“Father, glorify Thy Son”
That’s golden! You see Wesley’s power as a poet there. If my church was preaching through I John 2, I’d probably just sing this one to a well-known hymn melody, unless by the time the series came out somebody had written a good current melody to it. It fits the melodies, just to give a couple examples, it fits to “What a Friend we Have in Jesus,” “Come Thou Fount,” “Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus,” or “Oh, the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus.” And if you search through Hymnary or your hymnal’s index for other melodies in the 8.7.8.7. meter, you can find more. that is one good way to use older hymns because it’s a lot easier for a congregation to sing if they already know the melody.
David Hill:
Good point.
Daniel J. Mount:
But there’s something to this verse, where even though a lot of the wording doesn’t directly parallel verses 1 and 2 of this chapter, I really think that was Wesley’s main idea here, because where it says, “If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” Jesus is our advocate. When He’s our advocate, what’s He saying?
Well, He’s God. He’s not downplaying the sinfulness of what we’ve done. He’s also not making an emotional plea. He’s not saying it doesn’t matter. He’s not playing on God the Father’s emotions. Jesus Christ is our advocate. When He’s our advocate, how does He advocate for us?
I think Wesley hits on it exactly here, and as they say down south, “that’ll preach.” “Father, hear the blood of Jesus speaking in thine ears above.” That, when Jesus is advocating for us, I think he’s advocating with His blood. And that is the point of the song. It brings it out so well.
And Jesus is saying to the Father, “Their sins are forgiven by My blood, what I have done.” “Still His blood cries out, forgive them; all their sins were laid on me.”
But then I love how he ties it back into God’s glory. We exist for the glory of God. And this ties it into that. “Still our advocate in heaven prays the prayer on earth begun. Father show their sins forgiven. Father glorify thy Son.” Jesus is advocating that his blood has paid for our sins and that as we’re repentant of our sins, of course, and God forgives them through Jesus’s blood. It brings God glory. What’s Jesus advocating? It doesn’t say in this verse, but as he pulls from the rest of Scripture, I don’t think he could have given a better answer to this question of what is Jesus advocating as our advocate. I love this lyric.
David Hill:
Yeah, it is beautiful, no doubt. And it’s worth noting that Wesley does that in both Arise My Soul Arise.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
He also has a verse, I can’t remember off the top of my head which verse it was, but he also has a verse of Christ’s, of specific words, imagining Jesus saying specific words to the Father.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. OK, what do you have at number three?
David Hill:
We already covered my number three, that was “Arise My Soul Arise.” My number two is weird.
Daniel J. Mount:
Okay?
David Hill:
This is “Friend of the Friendless,” which later got renamed to, “God of My Life, to Thee I Call.” And this is a Cowper text.
I’ll just tell you the real reason I love it and the reason it’s so high. This violates some of my criteria because it’s not very expository. But what I loved about it is that it pulls no punches. I had written down here that the tone of this poetry is so close to what you read in some of David’s Psalms. I’ll just read you some of what’s there. It’s in first person.
God of my life, to Thee I call
Afflicted at thy feet I fall.
When the great water floods prevail,
Leave not my trembling heart to fail.
And then here’s the verse that is from I John.
Fair is the lot that’s cast for me.
I have an Advocate with thee.
They whom the world caresses most
Have no such privilege to boast.
And then number five, this is the one of the ones that’s kind of the most poignant:
Poor though I am, despised, forgot,
Yet God, my God, forgets me not.
And he is safe and must succeed
For whom the Lord vouchsafes to plead.
So again, it’s archaic language. But what I love about it is the. What I love about it is that the language, even though it’s old, he is not holding back the deep emotions. And I think often in hymns, this very condensed art form, often what comes across it, where we’re so concerned with the theology, rightly so, but often what can come across is quite cold.
You know, Cowper is sometimes maligned for being too emotional. But I really think, like David, I think he was an artist and I think he had very deep emotions and I think he didn’t hold back. And that’s what I love about this him.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s a good choice. It’s not one that had really jumped out at me. But that’s why I have more than one perspective. That is a very good choice.
David Hill:
I don’t think there’s a great tune. I wasn’t able to find a great tune for this. And yeah, so that may have been one thing that held it back. And I do think you might want to try to update the language if you used it in a church service.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. There’s something, I think on the second to last verse that you read, if you could pull that wording back up, there’s something he said about assurance, which has an extra poignancy when we think about who he was and his challenges.
William Cooper was one of the best poets of his day outside of just congregational music. But, as a Christian, His walk with the Lord was not easy because he was plagued by doubt over whether or not he was saved and whether or not he had committed or could commit or would commit an unpardonable sin. But in his brighter moments he wrote some incredible lyrics that speak to the assurance of the believer and speak to the things that I’m sure he was writing because he reminded himself of it—because he needed the reminder.
David Hill:
That’s right.
Daniel J. Mount:
And there’s just this extra depth to some of these words when we consider that. Could you reread those lines about assurance?
David Hill:
Yeah, so it’s the:
Poor though I am, despised, forgot,
Yet God, my God, forgets me not.
And he is safe and must succeed
For whom the Lord vouchsafes to plead.
And I’ll say this last verse—again like with the Wesley, he talks about Christ as being the reason why we’re able to be heard.
Then hear, O Lord, my humble cry,
And bend on me thy pitying eye,
To thee their prayer thy people make.
Hear us for our Redeemer’s sake.
That’s the last verse.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s very good.
David Hill:
That’s a really good text.
Daniel J. Mount:
So my number two was, “What is the World to Me?” And we already discussed that one. So I will move out of the top of my list, which was the one easy call in the whole chapter. It looked, I look at the chapter. I’m like, there’s no question what my number one is. And that’s “Before the Throne of God Above.” Charitie Bancroft. We tend to sing it to the Vicki Cook melody.
David Hill:
Yep, that was my number one too. Yep.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, so we’ll both talk about it here. And this is one last song from the first verse of the chapter, which is, “My little children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin, and if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea;
a great High Priest whose name is Love,
who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on his hands,
my name is written on his heart.
I know that while in heav’n he stands
no tongue can bid me thence depart
The melody we sing today was written by Vicki Cook of Sovereign Grace Music, although it wasn’t known as Sovereign Grace at the time. It was founded as People of Destiny, although I believe that it had become PDI, and thus PDI music, by the time she wrote this melody in the mid-1990s. So it was introduced somewhere in the vicinity of ‘97.
The lyric, though, is public domain It was written by Charitie Bancroft who was an Irish hymn writer who lived from 1841 to 1923. The song had fairly limited usage until Vicki Cook wrote her melody. It was not entirely unknown but it was not widely sung either. But since that melody, at least in the circles I’m in, it has become one of the most beloved and recognizable congregational songs of my lifetime. If I were leading worship on a day we’re preaching from the first part of I John 2, I’m including it for sure.
So this is also your number one. What are some of your thoughts on what makes this song so good?
David Hill:
Yeah, so I’m gonna have to go with, first of all, these lyrics are just chill-inducing. They’re so good.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, they are.
David Hill:
And they have that really rare thing, which is that each verse ramps up the emotion.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
And by the time you get to the third verse, it’s just really euphoric. But, I’m going to have to say right here, you know, you and I met as part of the Getty songwriting collective,
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
David Hill:
which was a kind of songwriting instructive online thing that the Gettys did. And one of the things that Keith Getty likes to say is that a really good lyric, with poor music is not going to go far, where the reverse is not necessarily true. And when he first said that, I thought, do I agree with that or do I not? But the longer I kind of look into hymns, I think he’s right. And it’s interesting that you said that this text has been around, how long, when did Bancroft write it, did you know?
Daniel J. Mount:
I don’t know off the top of my head what year she wrote it, but I think we can probably say it’s in the vicinity of a hundred year old lyric.
David Hill:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Actually, she died in 1923. It’s 2023. I was thinking vicinity of a hundred-year-old at the time Vicki Cook’s melody was written.
David Hill:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So vicinity of a hundred twenty-five-year-old lyric, and I’ll likely add her.
David Hill:
So, you know, one of the things I wanted to point out is that this melody is largely pentatonic, meaning that it uses only five notes of the scale. Now, it’s not entirely pentatonic because the second half uses the seventh scale degree. But pentatonic melodies tend to give a timelessness. And so if you think of “How Firm a Foundation,” “Amazing Grace,” “Brethren We Have Met to Worship,” those are all strictly pentatonic. But that is one thing that I think really helps this kind of capture that timelessness, timeless quality.
And then it doesn’t have a chorus. But it has what I think any song that’s going to not have a chorus needs, which is a section that really allows some breadth and some soaring. So right where in the first verse. “My name is Graven on his hand” is that. You know, not only does it sound fantastic, but it makes people really want to sing it for sure.
And then, one last thing I wanted to mention with the music is that the harmonies of it, I really enjoy. First of all, it has a rare use of a three chord, which we don’t get very often. So
Daniel J. Mount:
Three minor?
David Hill:
The minor three, yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Three minor, okay.
David Hill:
Yeah, so that’s always refreshing when you run across that. Of course, not every church probably uses that, but it’s there. And then my second thing is that, you know, almost everyone uses the minor six, but it’s where Vicki Cook has put the six, I think, that is so effective with this. [Demonstrates] That’s such a satisfying place for the six. And then again the six. Again, the six. So I think with that minor, she’s giving us that tension of our sin and God’s holiness. And then it’s such a beautiful resolution between the two.
Daniel J. Mount:
You said so many interesting things that section that I think are worth commenting and further discussion on. I’m probably not going to remember them all.
But I will jump on one of your passing remarks. Keith Getty said that his remark that a song that’s incredible lyrically but does not have a strong melody won’t go far. I think there’s a corollary to that. which is that a song that has an amazing melody but does not have an amazing lyric will go far, but it’ll be a flash in the pan. It won’t last.
David Hill:
That’s right. I completely agree with you on that. Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
You know, the songs that fly up and down the CCLI charts, because they have an incredible hook, and decent words, but just decent perhaps, and don’t have the depth that leaves a song to stay, those are the songs that go up and down.
Another thing you said that was really interesting was the discussion about the pentatonic nature of this song. This is something that, in my recollection, granted I was younger at the time, but in my recollection, we weren’t talking about so much in the 90s as we are now. You don’t see much pentatonic praise and worship music in the 90s. We think of pentatonic as an insight Keith Getty introduced to us in a sense. And he did popularize the idea. Of course, nobody’s going to say he invented it. You just mentioned three or four hymns and there are others. Nobody’s going to say he invented pentatonic, but he has done a fair amount through workshops he was doing as early as 2003-06, and since, where he’s been talking about the value of pentatonic, how it makes it something that can bridge cultures more easily. And it’s something we’ve thought about, those of us who write music for the church have thought about a lot more in the years since he’s been talking about it.
It’s just fun in that context to think about this song. He wrote his first song, his first congregational song, “In Christ Alone,” 2001. This is roughly ‘97. So here we have Vicki Cook intuitively stumbling on perhaps the key and central musical insight that would help make Keith Getty’s melodies so accessible worldwide. And she’s stumbling on it several years before he did. It’s just fun to think about in the context of things.
David Hill:
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
I have a few honorable mentions here too, because I think the format works best if we’re doing five. These two didn’t quite make my top five but are worth it just a quick mention.
Southern Gospel song, it’s a performance song not really congregational: “With God as My Witness” by the Mark Trammell Trio is another good call out to I John 2:1.
And then Richard Jensen had a song called “The World is Passing Away,” that pulls from several verses of I John, including verses 7 and 8. Neither of us really had a song that made our top five that was from those verses. So those are two.
Do you have anything else that was front of mind for you that just about made your list that you want to give a quick shout-out to?
David Hill:
Uh, no. You had mentioned maybe talking about what I would use for a church.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, let’s just go there.
David Hill:
And, okay, so some of these were not listed, and I understand why they weren’t, because they’re actually, they’re probably on your Expository Songs in a different place. So one of them was the “Act Justly, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly,” which is of course Micah 6-8. But that theme is explored in this chapter also, in the in the last half of the chapter. That’s a more recent song, and we introduced it in our church as a as a kids’ Scripture song.
Daniel J. Mount:
Who did that?
David Hill:
I think it’s Pat Barrett, Jason Ingram, Chris Tomlin. It goes with I John 2:7-11. That’s where it covers this idea. But yeah, that would be it. And again, that’s a really great one. We use it often as a more peppy upbeat. It’s difficult to find those that also have lots of good content.
And this is one: “Let Us Be Known By Our Love” is an old Bethel song from, I think, maybe 2011.
And then “Abide,” of course, there’s this theme of abiding in Christ, both in the Gospel of John and then it comes back heavily here. There’s a song called Abide by Aaron Keyes and Aaron Williams. That’s a really terrific song and it has this beautiful musical thing where it almost sounds like tendrils of a vine that twist. So yeah, I think those would definitely be some that I would use along with definitely, as you said, “Before the Throne of God,” for sure.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, I think that like you, if I were leading worship through 1 John 2, I would largely have to pull from some songs that were more topical fits.
David Hill:
Right.
Daniel J. Mount:
Definitely do “Before the Throne of God Above.” And realistically, even if it’s as a special music, I’m probably going to try to find a way to do that second Wesley song, “His Speaking Blood,” because I think that lyric is so amazing. I would probably do it to “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.” in my context. My context would know that melody well, but it’s not a song we sing every week either, and if it’s a song you sing all the time, it’s harder for somebody to adjust. So for us, I think “What a Friend We Have in Jesus” is one that fits the cadence of the lyric fairly well, but isn’t so constant so as to be distracting.
So I do those two. and I’d probably find a way later in the chapter, even if it’s just a special music, I’d try to find a way to fit in “What Is the World to Me?” also?
So Dave, how satisfied are we with the songs from this chapter? We’ve both spent a fair amount of time the last couple weeks looking through songs from this chapter. How are you feeling? What’s our depth look like and what’s our quality look like? How are you feeling?
David Hill:
So I would say this passage is ripe for songwriters and we should get to work.
Daniel J. Mount:
I think so.
David Hill:
And I wrote down especially verses 12 through 14, that little poem that’s in there.
Daniel J. Mount:
The fathers and sons, you’ve overcome, older men? Yes.
David Hill:
Yes, because there are strong family overtones in that I think should be explored. It’s poetic and it’s got a lot of mystery to it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
David Hill:
And I think that a song could really help, in some ways could help shed some light on what’s being spoken there, you know, if guided by the Spirit. And I just think there could be a really beautiful song written from that passage, and I’ve never heard it. So to me, that would be a strong contender. But you mentioned breadth and depth. There’s just… we’re missing breadth. There’s a lot of depth in a few of the songs that we’ve mentioned. But many of the songs we mentioned only contained small bits of the chapter within it.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, that is how I feel too. I think there’s two verses slash multi-verse sections that are covered pretty well. The first couple verses, with Jesus as our Advocate, and then verses 15-17 on loving the world. I think we have some good options for those two. I think we need more good options for the rest of the chapter. Congregational if possible. If something just doesn’t work out congregationally, we need good songs to listen to the rest of the week, too. You mentioned 12-14, totally on board. I also think that verses 7 and 8 need more.
David Hill:
What were those?
Daniel J. Mount:
I’ll read it: Beloved. I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the Word which you heard from the beginning. Again a new commandment. I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you. Because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness till now.” The it talks about abiding in the light, not hating your brother. I think there’s a there’s a need for that.
And I think that There’s room for a really sweet, maybe even powerful song out of the end of the chapter, 28, ‘And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at his coming.” So I think there’s definitely some abiding-themed songs that need to be written out of this chapter.
David Hill:
Agreed.
Daniel J. Mount:
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to record this episode. Do you have any other thoughts on this chapter? And either way, could you remind listeners again where they can hear your new song and any social media channels you’d like to mentio where people can keep track with what you’re writing, online?
David Hill:
Thanks. Yeah, I don’t have anything more to add about the chapter.
I do have a website, not wonderfully maintained, but it can give you an idea of what things are there. And that’s davidhillmusic.net. And then, as I said, I’m working right now on several songs that you were lyricist for. Those will be out soon, Lord willing. But my only published song at the moment is “Our Glorious Hope,” which can be found on Spotify and all the other streaming services. We have a couple YouTube videos of it too.
Daniel J. Mount:
Wonderful. Thank you again so much for your time.
And to the listeners, I would say to hear future episodes, subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find episode transcriptions and the free 50,000-song Expository Song searchable database at danielmount.com. Thank you for listening.