Video
Audio
Show Notes
Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lirjsll-T8U
Chord chart and lead sheet: https://www.wendellk.com/songbook
Story: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cth8TPmsvQu/
Wendell Kimbrough
https://www.wendellk.com/
https://www.instagram.com/wendellkmusic/
https://www.facebook.com/wendellkmusic
https://twitter.com/wendellkmusic
https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zO6HdgPt1pOQsP6kC4i9B
https://www.patreon.com/wendellkmusic
Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Daniel J. Mount:
Welcome to the Expository Songs podcast. We discuss songs where the main idea of a passage of scripture is the main idea of a song. My name is Daniel Mount, and today we’re discussing You Belong, written and recorded by today’s guest, Wendell Kimbrough. Welcome.
Wendell:
Hey Daniel, thanks for having me, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
Glad to have you here. To the listener, if you’ve never heard the song, “You Belong,” pause this podcast and listen to it. It’s also linked in the show notes. And then come back for the conversation.
Now, Wendell, I know that some of the listeners of this podcast will probably have been familiar with and appreciated your music for years, but others will be hearing about you for the first time. So for their sake, could you just give us a general outline of your background—as a Christian, but also as a musician and a songwriter.
Wendell:
Yeah, once again, thanks for having me on the show.
I kind of grew up in church. My dad’s a pastor. So I was in church every day as a kid and played in church a lot. Ran down the halls of the church, fellowship hall, or whatever. So church was always part of my life.
Church was not necessarily a place where I felt very connected, though. And I think a lot of what got me into music was trying to connect my heart with what was happening in church, trying to bring my feelings into the room, if you will.
And yeah. I was musically talented and started doing music as a kid. I played piano and took piano lessons. Little funny family story: Apparently I could carry a tune really well when I was very little. In fact, I was a late talker. And so at like around age two, I apparently gave a hummed performance of “Jesus Loves Me.” in front of the church in Clio, Alabama, a little bitty town where my dad was a pastor. I couldn’t talk yet, but I could carry a melody.
So anyway, music was pretty natural to me. I played piano as a kid, took lessons, kind of taught myself guitar around middle school age when it became important to try to impress girls. And you couldn’t really haul a piano with you everywhere you went, but you could take a guitar to church camp.
That’s the kind of question I could go on a long time. But I’ve now been a professional church musician for pretty much my whole adult life. I kind of stumbled into it, but I had some people that mentored me in leading worship. I found it was something I could do well and enjoyed doing in a lot of ways. I found my way into a church plant in Washington, DC. And that’s how I became an Anglican, which is the tradition I’ve been in for now like seventeen years, eighteen maybe. And I worked for an Anglican church in DC that planted another church and did that for seven years.
We spent a few years in Alabama, eight years actually, which is where I first started writing Psalms and specifically sacred music or music for worship. And then we moved here to Dallas, Texas just over a year ago. And I’m at an Episcopal church here now called Church of the Incarnation.
Daniel J. Mount:
Cool. You mentioned the challenges of being open and vulnerable in church and how music helped and I’ve heard you discuss those in some other interviews you’ve done. It would have to be extra hard as a pastor’s kid. You know, it’s probably hard for children to open up generally, not saying it was easy for me, but my father wasn’t a pastor. It’dl probably have to be extra hard for you in that context.
Wendell:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t until pretty late in my life—I think I was in my 30s when I started to really unpack and try to make sense of my story with church and music and kind of like, how did I get here? How did I get into this career field and this vocation?
One of the realizations for me was that like, in some ways I had kind of been performing at church my whole life in one way, shape, or form—whether it was just being the good kid and being aware of the fact that people were watching me.
I genuinely wanted to be a good kid. So I was trying to be a model citizen from a pretty young age. But all that to say, it’s hard to be a model citizen and be fully honest at the same time, because all of us are both good and bad, you know, we all have broken parts. And so church for a long time. was a place where, it’s a little sad to say, but I really did not feel a lot of love and connection. I wasn’t really a whole person there, you know? I was a good kid, I was like kind of performing.
And it’s still a challenge. You know, I’m a professional Christian, so it’s like still an occupational hazard. It’s like easy to just show up and kind of go through the motions of being a good worship leader on Sunday and not actually like bring my whole self to the room, to God and to the other people in the room, which is kind of goes hand in hand.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I do a background question or two with everybody who comes on, because while the podcast episode largely focuses on a particular song, it helps people to understand who is the person who wrote it, where are they coming from. But I think it’s especially valuable in this case, for this song we’re talking about today.
Because it’s a psalm setting. It’s not an autobiographical song per se, but as I’ve seen you share in a post you put on Instagram and Twitter, it’s nevertheless a song that’s informed by that background, by your context, and by those experiences. So I think it’s especially helpful to understand the song we’re talking about today in light of who you are. and your background and those experiences.
And to not bury the lede, the song we’re talking about doing a deep dive on today is a song called “You Belong,” your setings of Psalm 87, correct?
Wendell:
That’s right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So it’s on streaming services now as a single. And it’s also the title track of your Psalms album coming out July 14th.
Wendell:
That’s right.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I tend to start by asking about your initial inspiration for a song not knowing anything about the answer. But I saw the post you put up. But not everybody who hears this will have seen that post. Could you share a little bit about that lightbulb moment that led to you better understanding the heart of Psalm 87?
Wendell:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you know, having grown up in the church, spent tons of time with Scripture—I grew up in a tradition that loved the Word, and that’s one of the things I’m really grateful for. Like, I kind of knew or thought I knew Psalm 87 for years. I came to it through the hymn “Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken.”
Daniel J. Mount:
John Newton.
Wendell:
Yeah. You know, it’s not my favorite hymn, just to be honest. It’s a celebration of Jerusalem.
Daniel J. Mount:
The double syllable rhymes are impressive though.
Wendell:
Oh, very impressive.
Daniel J. Mount:
Structurally, craftsmanship wise,
Wendell:
Absolutely.
Daniel J. Mount:
Newton pulling off those verse after verse after verse of these perfect double syllable rhymes, I’m like, the guy’s a genius.
Wendell:
He is a genius.
Daniel J. Mount:
But you’re right, he does dwell more on the first few verses.
Wendell:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
He doesn’t get to this heartbeat that we see in verses four through six as much.
Wendell:
It’s like it definitely doesn’t compare to the pathos of “Amazing Grace.”
Daniel J. Mount:
No.
Wendell:
So yeah, Psalm 87 is about Jerusalem. It’s about how great Jerusalem is, right? But there’s this line in there that I had just kind of overlooked or never really connected the dots on. And I don’t have a Bible. I should have had one in front of me. It’s verse 4, I believe.
Daniel J. Mount:
I have the passage here.
Wendell:
Want to read it?
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, I pulled it up. And I might just read four through six because that’ll be kind of the whole section we’re going through. “I will make mention of Rahab [or Egypt, depending on your translation.] I’ll make mention of Egypt and Babylon to those who know Me. Behold of Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia. This one was born there. And of Zion it will be said. ‘this one and that one were born in her.’ And the Most High himself shall establish her. The Lord will record when He registers the peoples, ‘This one was born there.’ Selah.”
Wendell:
I mean, so what you have there is you have kind of like a laundry list of some of the worst enemies of God’s people. Babylon, Egypt, Israel was enslaved in Egypt. Babylon had sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. And Yahweh is saying that at some point, it will be said of people of these other nations, this one was born here. In other words, these guys were born here in Zion, here in Jerusalem.
And the image for me that just got me was like God walking the streets of—I mean, I see this eschatologically. I see it as like a future thing—but like God walking the streets of the new Jerusalem or Heaven if you want to think of it that way. And he’s got new birth certificates that he’s handing out. And it’s literally like, “You’re not a visitor here. You’re not a stranger here. Like here’s your new birth certificate. Look, I’m writing your name. You’re in my family. Like you belong right here in Jerusalem just as much as any Jew, you know, any whatever, like fill in the blank, any insider, like you belong here, you Egyptian, you Babylonian, you Philistine.”
And that just was a really stunning and surprising image to me. It’s not that surprising in the scope of Scripture because there are other places where we see this. I’m thinking about Isaiah 25 and just the whole book of Revelation, the multitude and every tribe and tongue is gathered. But I just had never seen it in Psalm 87. And particularly that language of “this one was born here.” To you former enemies of God, your inclusion in God’s family will be so deep and so radical that it’s like to the very beginning, you get a new birth certificate literally.
Daniel J. Mount:
You know, it’s really interesting. the analogy of adoption to our becoming part of the kingdom of God is something we see in the New Testament. So it’s a very biblical analogy to use. But even then, as we’d understand it in our country today, the analogy like any other analogy might fall a little short of how amazing it is because analogies help us understand spiritual truths but rarely are they as overwhelming.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
And this point you’re discussing is that point where the analogy falls short in a sense. Because if you give—I’ll make up a time and a location as an example. But let’s just say birth certificate of somebody is February 1st, 1980, Birmingham, Alabama and then has their birth parents.
Well, that person’s adopted. They get their new birth certificate—as I understand, at least in many states—their birth certificate actually gives their adoptive parents as their parents as I understand it. But that birth certificate still has born February 1st 1980, Birmingham, Alabama
It still has the date of birth and the old place of birth. What you’re talking about here is an adoption so comprehensive that your place of birth is now Jerusalem, your place of birth is now Zion. And that’s a step beyond the analogy, where our analogy might fall a little short of how amazing this is.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it’s a beautiful image.
It just started me writing a song immediately. You know, I just felt it kind of welling up inside of me. And the line was, “You belong.” That’s how I kind of translated the, “this one was born here.” “It will be said of them,” because it’s not just God saying. “I’m saying you belong here.” He’s like, everyone will agree. All these folks over here are all going to say, “Hey, you were born here.” It’s a communal thing.
Having had some experiences of having a group of people really welcome me in a profound way, I know just how deeply that touches your heart when a group of people says, “Hey, you belong here. We want you here. You’re part of this family or you’re part of this community.” So yeah, it just got my heart stirring.
I have a Patreon community—I talked about this a little bit on that social media post as well—but so on Patreon, people subscribe to my music and I release a new song to them every month. And chord charts and I do live streams and things like that.
When I was writing this song, I had a live stream scheduled like that night or something. I don’t remember the exact timing of it. And a lot of times on those live streams, I would share works in progress. This song was so compelling for me.
I think I was at my office, I was working on the song and I had to go home and eat dinner. And then I was going to come back to my office because that’s where all my gear and my cameras and things were set up. As I was driving home and then driving back to the office in the car My brain was like just still writing the song. I was just in it. I was feeling it, and I was composing whole verses in my head. And then when I got home I scribbled them down. And then on the way back to the office, driving up to the live stream, the last verse was coming together in my head.
And I actually had five or six verses in that first draft and I kind of pared it back down. But all I had to say that it doesn’t always happen that way as a songwriter, you know, that a song is just my heart’s engaged, my head’s engaged. Like I can’t hardly put it down until it was like done, you know?
So that was, that was a fun experience. And I’m really pleased that this song has ended up. becoming something that got recorded and now I get to share with the world. It’s cool.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, so looking at the first verse, we’ve already talked a little about that initial point of inspiration, how you started forming it. But I did have a question about the progression you had in mind as you were putting this first verse or two together.
You’re starting with “the ones who were once God’s sworn enemies” and then “the ones who sold my children as slaves.”
And so that’s a fairly straightforward progression. You’ve got Philistia and Tyre, sworn enemies; and then you have Babylon and Egypt, the captivities of Israel. But then right in these first verses, before you get to the first chorus, you’re talking about the land beyond the seas.
So when you get to that point in your progression of thought as you’re putting these first couple of verses together, are you kind of staying on a literal level with Ethiopia being right across the Red Sea? Or were you from the start kind of working with the implications and the outworking of this idea and talking about us in the Americas and Australia and whoever else might be beyond the seas?
Wendell:
Sure. Yeah, I think I’m already dreaming globally at that point. This song did feel so personal to me. Like it did feel like I heard God through Psalm 87 in a fresh way saying, “And Wendell, you belong too. Like you’re really part of my family. You’re not just a tack-on, you’re not an immigrant who we’ve allowed to hang out. You don’t have a green card. You really are part of this family too.”
My family history, you know, is Scottish and English. And then I grew up in the United States. We’re so far removed from the context of Israel and their immediate neighbors. I think that’s already me kind of saying like, yeah, the promise of God’s love and inclusion is for all peoples, you know, it’s for all nations. Even us. Even us Americans.
Daniel J. Mount:
Even us, yes.
“Come to the table where God spreads a feast. You belong, you belong, you belong with me.” So when you have this feast imagery. Are you thinking of this as just a general imagery? Or are you thinking of specific imagery, whether it be the prodigal son’s return to the Lord’s Supper, or as you’ve already talked about, thinking about from the start these eschatological outworkings and thinking ultimately of the Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?
Wendell:
Yeah, I think I’m thinking it’s, I would say yes to that.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Wendell:
And I’m pulling up, I just want to actually pull up because sometimes I’m working from places in Scripture that are kind of in my memory, you know?
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Wendell:
But I don’t necessarily pull them up or have them in front of me when I’m writing the song. But if a psalm points me to another place in Scripture, I love it when a psalm can kind of be a lens to look at the whole biblical narrative through, or something like that.
And I know I must have been thinking about Isaiah 25 on this. “On this mountain, the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine. of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. And He will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever. And the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people He will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken.” It’s one of my favorite passages. It’s actually been a little while since I’ve read it, but I just, I love that. And I think that’s probably what I was thinking about. I think that’s probably where Psalm 87 was taking me. It’s this inclusive vision of Israel as a light to the Gentiles, as a blessed nation to be a blessing. and the inclusion of the Gentile nations, in God’s promise and seated around God’s table. Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
And then I think another bit of imagery you’re pulling from, you have the, “Oh, turn and believe and receive your new name.” There’s twice in Revelation in the letters to the seven churches where the overcomers are promised a new name. And that would be, I would think you’re probably pulling from that as another vantage point another lens that we’re looking through this new identity we have
Wendell:
Mm-hmm. Totally. And actually, probably still in Isaiah there, but it’s absolutely… I mean Isaiah gets picked up so much in Revelation, and it would take me a little bit to find it, but I want to say it’s Isaiah 62, where God talks about giving a new name, a name that’s better than sons and daughters. But yeah, absolutely,
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Wendell:
that same kind of eschatological vision that Revelation captures, its origins are there in some of these beautiful prophecies of Isaiah.
Daniel J. Mount:
62:2. You got it, good memory.
Wendell:
There you go. I couldn’t find it, I was looking right at it.
Daniel J. Mount:
“The Gentiles shall see your righteousness and all kings your glory. You shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord will name.”
Wendell:
Love it
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Wendell:
Yeah, and it goes on, too: “You’re not going to be called forsaken anymore or desolate. You’ll be called, ‘My delight is in her’ and your land will be called ‘married.’” So it’s beautiful; it’s good stuff.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, it is. So I just love how these concepts are all interconnected, how this isn’t just looking at one aspect of a new identity. But we’re looking at our adoption—so new parenthood in a spiritual sense; we’re looking at a new name and a new homeland in Zion—which are all outworking some implications of where we start. And I love it.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
Now I think there’s a helpful clarification in the chorus where it says “the City of God is your home.” And I think it’s helpful because there is some overlap in Scripture in the terms Jerusalem, Zion, and City of God. A high degree of overlap. But it’s not a perfect overlap. Because Jerusalem, more often, the higher percentage of those references are of the actual literal location. And when you’re talking Zion, it’s not always, but a little more often used in the eschatological outworkings. So I like how you used another way of saying it in the chorus to make it clear that you’re pulling from this broader eschatological sense.
Wendell:
Thank you. Appreciate that.
Daniel J. Mount:
So verse 3 is—not that the previous parts aren’t—but verse 3 is at some level an application. And it’s because God welcomes us. and adopts his enemies, we stop being enemies. And so because this happens, we stop hating, we lay down our weapons.
So, not that this isn’t also end times, but would I be correct in saying you’d probably see verse three in the timeline of the song as being, as much as anywhere else in the song, some of the present day outworking of this concept?
Wendell:
Yeah, absolutely.
As best I understand the Christian life, what we’re supposed to be doing is living as a people of hope. That, to a large degree, means keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus and really this eschatological hope of Jesus making all things right and all things new, restoring Heaven and earth to be one, restoring humanity.
And we get plenty of pictures of what that looks like in Scripture. And, think what we’re supposed to be doing is trying to, trying as best we can in our broken world and with our broken selves to enact the future, you know? To live in the present, in the kingdom of God, as if it’s already here. To participate in the kingdom of God. There’s so many different ways of saying this, but it’s like, well, what will God’s people look like and be like and behave like when we’re gathered around the throne of the Lamb? And how do we practice that as much as possible now?
And I was thinking about it, it’s like, man, if you were an ancient Israelite, you might not have liked Psalm 87. Cause you may have deep and real wounds connected to some of these other people groups. Depending on where you fell in Israel’s history, you may have had a brother killed in battle with the Philistines. Or you may have had family members that were taken off and died in the Babylonian captivity. You know, actual real harm that was done. And this idea of all these enemies. becoming part of God’s family could be really uncomfortable.
So I sing that third verse respectfully. So I think the line was like, “turn to the ones you have reason to hate.” It’s like, you do have reason. Like, we’ve all got reasons for the groups that we don’t like and the people that we see as our enemies. But to some degree that doesn’t matter as much as God’s reality of love and His extension of His compassion and welcome to the stranger.
Anyway, yeah, verse three is me saying, okay, if I’m experiencing this deep welcome, this word of “you belong, you’re part of this family, you’re loved,” can I then turn to people who have hurt me? Or groups that I’m afraid of or groups that I have real differences with? And engage with them as one who is beloved and welcomed and accepted and who belongs, not as one who is fighting for my place in the world or afraid to give a point or give an inch or whatever because you know his son of a guns are gonna screw me over or whatever—this combative fear-driven engagement with the world that we all can do on some level. So yeah, verse three is just me kinda trying to—It’s a challenge. You know, let’s not just celebrate that this one day will be true, but how do we actually live in light of this right now?
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes.
Daniel J. Mount:
So you brought up something that points to an interesting rabbit trail, which I think I’ll chase for a minute because why not?
Wendell:
Sure.
Daniel J. Mount:
My primary involvement in my church right now is musical, from the standpoint of playing some piano for some of our services. But I do preach on occasion. And several years ago I had the privilege of preaching through Psalm 87.
Wendell:
Hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
I thought I was going to be talking about how great Zion was.
Wendell:
Oh.
Daniel J. Mount:
And once I got into it, just the exercise of needing to go verse by verse, I started realizing exactly those things we’ve been talking about, that there is more to this. That is why this song caught my attention as one I’d love to talk about.
But one thing we talked about was how this concept… You didn’t say it in these words per se, but how the Israelites would have understood this psalm if their brother had been killed in battle with the Philistines or if they had been taken captive to Babylon. And that reminded me of an interesting side conversation I had in that sermon, because I had maybe a month or two before that also preached through Psalm 137, which is probably the most uncomfortable Psalm to sing.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s the “happy is the one who takes and dashes your little ones against a rock” as the closing verse.
Wendell:
Sure. Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
But the opening verses are, “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea we wept when we remembered Zion. We hung our harps upon the willows in the of it. For there those who carried us away captive asked of us a song, and those who plundered us requested mirth, saying, ‘Sing us one of the songs of Zion.’ How shall we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?” I thought it would be… We don’t know whether 137 or 87 was written first, but just from the timing, 137 was likely one of the later Psalms written because it’s looking back, it’s in the context of the Babylonian captivity, so it’s probably one of our later ones.
Wendell:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
It would be really interesting if, you know, the Babylonians are saying, “sing us the songs of Zion,” which could be Psalms in general, but as likely as not were specifically those Psalms of Zion, the ones that discuss Zion.
Wendell:
Mmm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
And it would be really, really interesting. And I just kind of had this hypothetical conversation. But it’s interesting imagining the Babylonians asking the Israelites to sing them about a song about a time in history when there would be no more Babylonians but would be thrilled and honored to belong to the country they had just conquered.
Wendell:
Man. [Laughter] Yes. Oh, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
It’s a bit hypothetical, but there’s a very good chance I would say that would be one of the Psalms they were singing to the Babylonians.
Wendell:
Yeah, that’s interesting. And they might have sung it in a little more of a minor key, you know, at that time in a little bit more of a sense of just you wait, you know, the tables are going to turn.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah.
Wendell:
Even though I don’t think that’s the heart of Psalm 87. But yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
No, but when they are captive in Babylon, it would be… It was just interesting to imagine Psalm 87 being sung in the context of Psalm 137. Really, I gues.
Wendell:
Yeah, I hear taht. Yeah, that’s a cool insight.
Daniel J. Mount:
So, before I get to verse 4, which would be our last verse, you mentioned having written a few more verses. Just curious if you recall off the top of your head and to whatever extent you’re comfortable talking about it, were there any—What were some of the other ideas you were considering and chasing as you were developing this concept that ultimately might not have made the cut but were still perhaps interesting in the reflection and in the course of developing and understanding the concept?
Wendell:
Yeah. There was a specific verse. There were two that I can remember. And I’ve probably got them somewhere, but not in front of me. That line, it’s funny, the line that started the song for me was the Lord handing out new certificates of birth. And I had a verse that said that, it was like, I think I rhymed it with earth, like maybe the Lord coming from. heaven to earth or joining heaven and earth and walking around with new certificates of birth or something like that. I was trying to actually catch that visual you know and for whatever reason it just it just didn’t quite work. It’s a little clumsy of a phrase, you know.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Wendell:
And I’m kind of I really like things to sing easily and not feel awkward on my tongue. I want people when they sing the song in church to just feel like they’re just having a conversation with a friend. Like I want it to just flow. That that verse didn’t end up making the final cut, which is funny because that’s what started the song.
But the other verse was actually really personal. And I was puzzling about this a little bit because I stumbled on it recently and I was trying to—I think I cut it because it was it was more personal it really didn’t come straight out of Psalm 87. And the verse was something like… Although, let me say this, I think it was actually really important to the meaning of the song for me. It was something like: “There are things in my life that I wish were not true. And if I had a choice, I would hide them from You.” But then the connection was like, “But there’s an ache in my heart and I long to be free,” or maybe it was “I long to hear You sing, ‘you belong, you belong, you belong with Me.’”
Daniel J. Mount:
Wow.
Wendell:
I may write another song with that verse one day, you know.
But it gets into some of what we were talking about actually at the beginning of this conversation. I’ve learned kind of the hard way, like you really can’t experience deep belonging without deep knowing, without being known. And that means exposure. You know, it means letting the parts of your life that are ugly that you don’t really want other people to know about, it’s letting other people know about them. It’s letting people see them. And it’s when people can see the broken parts of you and still say we love you, we accept you, you belong here. That’s when you really feel it. You know, that’s where really, I would say that’s where the power of God’s embrace and His love can be felt and experienced.
And I’ve had that experience and it’s really been life changing for me. So I kind of went from being this like kid who was trying to just be a good guy and show everybody my best side all the time to like kind of running out of steam on that project and having to having to find a community—and praise God, I did—where like I could really be my real self and work through some of the broken parts of myself and still experience the love and embrace of the community around that.
When I played that song for my Patreon community that night that I wrote it, I think that I cried, which really was not what I expected to happen. But I kind of got to the end of the song and just had to take a minute to kind of recalibrate. And I think part of it was that part of my story, the experience of belonging that I’ve had and how real that is for me coming out in the song.
So anyway, it’s funny, when I saw that verse again recently—it’s now been probably a year, couple years since I wrote the song—I saw that verse that I ended up getting cut. And there was part of me that kind of grieved that a little bit just because that verse was so personal for me and so important to me in some ways. But I think that the heart of the song survived.
Daniel J. Mount:
Mm-hmm.
Wendell:
And it’s still there, but that verse, you know, is not in there.
Daniel J. Mount:
You know, I think it’s perhaps best that you have it like it is because I think a lot of people come to your music seeing every song or many of the songs as something they could sing in church. Even if these are some of the same people who would listen to, be at a Steve Green album or a Steven Curtis Chapman, or the artist artists, you know.
Those artists will have a song that crosses over to church sometimes, but they’re primarily coming at it from the perspective of an artist. If you’d been writing this song strictly from an artist’s perspective, you’d probably include that verse.
Wendell:
Yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
But I can also see where there comes a point where something so personal it’s a little harder to make it work congregationally, but there’s no reason you couldn’t do it live sometimes.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
I could see some value. if you’re in a context where you’re sharing about the background of the song. And maybe even you’ve already sung the song, you can sing that verse go back into the chorus, you know. There could still be room for it in a context where you’re singing as an artist. I love that verse. I love that concept.
Wendell:
Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks.
Daniel J. Mount:
There’s this interesting aspect of the Christian life where it’s in a sense we’re strangers either way. We speak about this sense of belonging, because Ephesians 2 tells us that we once were without Christ and without hope and without God in the world, strangers from the covenants of promise, but it says now therefore we’re no longer strangers.
Wendell:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel J. Mount:
But then on the flip side, once we belong to God, Hebrews 11 tells us that we’re pilgrims and strangers on the earth. Philippians 3 tells us our citizenship is in heaven. So we’re strangers either way. Either we’re estranged from—to use Augustine’s terms—either we’re estranged from the city of God or we’re estranged from the city of man.
Just sharing personally a little this song really resonated with me because I think just about anybody—at least any adult, and probably many teens—have felt a sense of not belonging at some point or another.
I know the point when I felt it most acutely was in my early teens, about 12 or 13, somewhere in there. My family was between churches for I think more than a year. And since I was homeschooled—which was a great experience and I’m thrilled I was homeschooled—but I didn’t have friends I saw regularly outside of church. So I kind of didn’t have any community, much at all, for that year, especially on any regular basis.
So I think there’s just a gem in this song in that. many of us, if not all of us, have felt at one point or another this sense of not belonging. And by God’s grace, those of us who have had the chance to experience this sense of belonging, by contrast, it really resonates. So thank you for writing it, thank you for reflecting on it, bringing all this out.
Wendell:
Yeah, man, I’m really happy to get to talk about this very topic. And I think you’re absolutely right. I think it’s a really good point. Makes me think about Bono saying, “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for.” Even post-baptism, post-entrance into God’s family, we still long for a—what is it? This is Pauline, but I don’t remember where, “Qe’ll know fully because we’re fully known.” We’ll know God, maybe Romans.
Daniel J. Mount:
1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter.
Wendell:
1 Corinthians. That’s right, the love passage. Yeah, like this idea of being fully known and experiencing ourselves as fully known and therefore fully loved, you know, in the presence of God, that’s part of what I’m trying to capture in the song.
At the same time, I will say, you know, I really do believe it’s part of the church’s mission to be and create a community where real belonging can happen. It’s not going to be perfect and people are going to let us down. But for the church to be a place where people can get a foretaste of God’s kingdom, and experience that kind of radical hospitality and community where we can be our real selves, be seen in our brokenness, be loved, be accepted. A lot of churches are not that, unfortunately.
Daniel J. Mount:
No, that is very true.
Wendell:
I think the church has kind of lost its way some on that in terms of like, I think that’s pretty core to what we’re supposed to be on earth as a body, as a place where… broken strangers can come and find love and acceptance in the name of Jesus.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes. So wrapping up fairly soon…
Wendell:
Yeah, sorry! [Laughter]
Daniel J. Mount:
I also don’t want to hold you crazy late. No, it’s all good. It’s all good. But I also want to give you whatever space you’d like to share anything else you’d like, either about something I hadn’t thought to cover from this song or about this upcoming album also titled You Belong, any of the other songs on it. Whatever you care to share. highlight a couple other songs people can be listening for. Whatever angle you’d like to come at it from, I definitely wanna give you that space.
Wendell:
Yeah, no, appreciate it. I don’t have anything prepared.
Daniel J. Mount:
That’s fine.
Wendell:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll just say I’m really excited about this album. It’s it’s been a long time since I’ve put out a full-length album. And this one, it came about kind of quickly.
I don’t know how much of my backstory you know on this. I didn’t really share this earlier, but for several years, I wrote. a psalm every week for my church.
Daniel J. Mount:
I did know that, yes.
Wendell:
So I kind of have this body of psalm song ideas essentially that’s pretty extensive at this point. I had an opportunity to get in the studio with Isaac, the producer that I’ve worked with on a couple of records that does the Porter’s Gate stuff. He had a really great band put together. and they were going to have an extra day in the studio. And he was like, “Hey, do you want to bring some songs in? And we could track a few songs.”
And I was like, “I want to track as much as I can in that one day. I’m going to come in.” And I really wanted to do stuff that was high energy and fun.
So I just worked through my Psalms. And I found a lot of the Easter Psalms, the ones that the lectionary has us do on Easter Sunday. the first couple Sundays of Easter. And we got in the studio and the chemistry was really good with the musicians. And we cranked out seven songs in like just over a day. We had like a little bit of time to set up. We tracked one song the night before and then the day of. But it’s just a fun record.
Every time I listen to it, I’m still really enjoying it. And it leans a little country, you know, and it’s just, the songs are about God’s radical love and His deliverance. And there’s so many psalms that are basically David looking back on a time when he was near death, and God came through. And a lot of us, we may not have that story in terms of like, there’s an army outside of my tent that’s literally trying to kill me, but a lot of us have stories of places where we could have died in one way or another, spiritually or otherwise. And God heard our cries.
It’s a fun record to celebrate God’s goodness. I’m excited about people hearing it. I can’t wait for it to get out.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yes, all right, I’ll ask one more fun question, then we’ll just close with where people can follow you online. But the fun question is really brought up by what you were just talking about. The fun comes through, like that in the studio video of “I Will Lift Up the Cup of Salvation.”
Wendell:
Oh yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
So I’ll ask the question, but I’ll explain the context. I’m curious what you’ve found, if anything, as a father of young children that—that you found in making your songs kid-friendly?
Because I have a one and a half year old and a two and a half year old, and they love what you do.
Wendell:
Mmm, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
Seriously, almost every day, our two and a half year old—this is the longest song title he says, he doesn’t say anything else this long yet—but he’ll say, “Play, I Lifta Da Cupa Sabation.” [Laughter] Every day, several times a day, he’ll ask for it. He doesn’t have the “will,” but other than that, he has the whole title. and “sabation” is just the cutest thing.
Wendell:
it’s amazing! [Laughter]
Daniel J. Mount:
But he’ll also say, “Dada, play the sousaphone.” “Oh. Give Thanks.”
Wendell:
“Oh, Give Thanks.”
Daniel J. Mount:
He loves the sousaphone.
Wendell:
Oh, yeah.
Daniel J. Mount:
Or “Clap De Hands, Stomp De Feet,” your collaboration with Caroline Cobb.
So my little kids love what you do. I’m just curious if you have any thoughts on what you’ve found and if it’s something you’ve grown into having little kids that that makes your music connect with little kids like it does with mine.
Wendell:
Hmm. Man, I appreciate that. Thank you, Daniel. It’s good to hear that. I don’t know. I mean, I’m thinking about it.
I guess, to some degree, it’s my own childhood. Like the music I remember loving earliest as a kid was kind of like Stephen Foster stuff. It’s like “She’ll Be Comin’ Around the Mountain When She Comes.” That kind of American folk song.
I actually didn’t listen to Raffi as a kid, but, but as an adult, I actually appreciate him. You know, it’s, it’s folk music. The melodies are simple enough. They have a lift to them. They’ve got to have some form. You can’t just sing one note over and over again. It’s like it’s got to go somewhere. I mean, Paul McCartney does that really well.
But like I loved these singable, simple melodies as a kid. And a lot of them just had a little rhythm that made you want to bounce up and down or dance to. And I think I still really enjoy that kind of music. That’s what I’m essentially what I’m trying to make. I’m not trying to make kids’ music, but I’m trying to make folk, good folk music, that people can hear once or twice and remember it. And I think that when that’s done well—which not all of my music does that well—but the ones that do like, whether you’re a grown-up or a kid, like you can connect with it, you know.
Daniel J. Mount:
Yeah, all ages in my church worship together. We don’t have the children somewhere else while we’re singing or anything like that.
Wendell:
Yeah, cool.
Daniel J. Mount:
And for churches that have that, it’s a wonderful thing to have some songs we can pull out that 80-year-olds and two-year-olds can enjoy singing. It’s good stuff.
Wendell:
Wendell:
Yeah. Thank you, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
Sure. All right, so thank you for taking the time to do this. Where can the listeners keep up with you online? Both social media and also we can specifically shout out your Patreon too.
Wendell:
Yeah, yeah. Truth be told, I don’t do a lot of posting on social media. So the best ways to keep in touch are to get on my email list. So if you go to wendellk.com, you can actually, if you’re a musician, download my song—I give away song charts, chord charts and lead sheets. And if you do that, you’ll be on my email list. But get on my email list. I send an email out every few months. It’s not a lot, but that’s how you can hear about what I’m doing.
And then if you really wanna track what I’m doing, I record and release a song every month to my patrons on Patreon. And those subscriptions start at $5 a month. And I’ve got a great community of folks there that—it’s not even just the money, but it’s their listening ears. They’re engaged with the song. I share works in progress with them and they give me feedback on like they’re very much kind of like creatively involved in what I’m doing. But that’s the place where I’m like most frequently posting new content and sharing new songs and that kind of thing.
I mean, you can follow me on Facebook and Instagram and those as well. But just full disclosure, I’m not like super invested in those platforms right now. So I’ll get on there every now and then and say, “Hey, I’ve got a new song coming out” or something like that.
Daniel J. Mount:
Well, thank you again so much for coming on, taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it. It’s been a very insightful conversation and I believe people will enjoy listening to it.
Wendell:
I enjoyed it, Daniel. Thanks for having me, man.
Daniel J. Mount:
Sure. And in conclusion, to the listeners: To hear future songwriter interviews, subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find episode transcriptions and the free 50,000-song Expository Songs searchable database on danielmount.com. Thanks for listening.